Sorry for the "Variety speak."

If you go to gay.com today, you'll see that Jim's story on Ryan Miller is the lead story on the site, thanks to a deal we've made with PlanetOut Partners. We'll be featured on their health & fitness section for at least the next six months.

Thank you all for your continued support!

Very cool. PlanetOut could use some new blood. If I see one more feature on their site about Queer as Folk or Ellen DeGeneres, I'll scream!

Good luck on the PO deal! Try to get them to lighten up a bit and understand the difference between news reportage and opinion. Until they do, I'll focus on this forum, not theirs!

Uh ohhhh....
I'm gettin' worried now. Genre? Fine, that's a feather in your cap! Great job, not that I plan on subscribing until I'm convinced they've pulled that magazine out of the nether regions occupied by Out and Advocate.
But Planet Out? I am one of those people that believes that the cyber world should remain a place of free communication, free information and free extension into the rest of the world. Planet Out is just another gay-for-pay purveyor of circuit garb and personal ads. I mistakenly set up an email acct with those folks some time ago. I learned soon after that a huge chunk of that site is pay-for this or pay-for that.
Silly me.
Not that I believe people shouldn't make a buck. But those folks sold my info off to every gay org and travel agency they could. And believe me, I have been careful to avoid to winding up on every mailing list.
But I made a typo when I signed up with Planet Out. And now every time a new piece of gay mail arrives in my mailbox, with that critical spelling error, I know that Planet Out is responsible.
Blech!

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: AU Tiger in LA ]

So, how much money did they pay you guys to sell out? Are you guys going to do what gay.conglom has already done?

- charge for services that were once free?

- add porno to your banner ads while hypocritically saying you're not like other sites?

- sell all your member info to every gay list around, including AOL, who censors gay profiles, fills chat rooms with born-again christians, and donates millions to anti-gay Exodus-spawning colleges?

- oh well, I guess outsports' bland, 'straight-acting' diatribes will become part of the gay borg, and just be assimilated. Too bad.

Geez, Jaques (sic), talk about arriving with an agenda! I can pass along at least two options: open the mind; shut down the computer...

If and when any or all of what you've listed happens, I might opt to move on. Til then, I'll enjoy my daily visit to Outsports and these fantastic boards.

And frankly, as a businessperson myself, I can only congratulate Jim, Cyd et al. for putting their stamp on the gaywww. Kudos, fellas!

Well, I think he has his monthly period.

Well done, Outsports.

Hey Jacques, calm down. PlanetOut and Gay.com have the rights to reprint material we already produce on Outsports. That's it. It gives us access to a much wider audience and we think this is a good thing. If you have a problem with that we'd love to know why.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Jim at Outsports ]

My post was not meant to reflect the views expressed by Jaques Strappe. Although, I tend to appreciate his view of gay.com as the "borg collective" of money-grubbing-homo-ownership-seeking-to-capitalize-on-their-own-kind.
I think Cyd and Jim are excellant at what they do. My fear is that I sense them quickly being assimilated into the websites and magazines that I have long despised.
I hope people understand that I will support them "here" and not "there," as I don't feel like paying for anything on the web, or paying for yet another fag-rag (just terminated my Out and Advocate membership two months ago).
Honestly...no hard feelings on my end. They can do what they want. I just don't care for either of the recent institutions to which they've become affilated with.
Sorry for the dangling participle.

If, as Jim said, all they're doing is allowing Planet Out and gay.com to post articles that originally appeared on Outsports, that hardly means they're being assimilated. Look at it more like this: Planet Out and gay.com are very ill, and Outsports is the cure!

Uhmmm, yeah. But they're terminally ill...and should probably be euthanized. And Jim and Cyd are not doctors. But they did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!

I don't go to gay.com much, but I wander around Planetout every once in a while. I've never wandered into anything that asked me to pay. Yes, there are too many banner ads, and too many of them are for booze. But the only thing that I've seen there that's for pay is the personals and I don't use them.

Whew, this news seems to have raised some steam!

I groaned at first, too, but since both Gay.com and Planetout desperately need some quality material and more balance, Outsports content will be a very positive addition....and it's smart business...

I take this news as positive, as Outsports material will be appearing on other websites. It is not a merger, nor a hostile takeover. I've always wondered how Outsports.com made any $, with a minimum of merchandise being sold, no advertising and very few commercial links (i.e. Amazon). Look at the recent great improvements on this website, particulary the message board. And unlike most other websites, there is no charge to post or respond to other members on the Clubhouse. This is a great website, and the founders deserve to make a living, the same way the rest of us do. If this deal will help ensure the future of Outsports.com, hip-hip-horray!

I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.

One of my big objectives with Outsports is to grow the size of the gay sports community - to reach out to gay men who may not otherwise relate to sports and welcome them into it. What we're doing with Genre, OutinAmerica.com and gay.com is a direct result of that mission.

I see guys complain incessantly on this board that most gay men don't like sports. Jim and I are trying to change that. And now we get a couple people attacking us for that. I know we can't please everyone, but this seems a bit much.

I don't think we should just remain on an island by ourselves and I'm sorry to see that some of you do.

And one more thing . . .

I would hope that our record would stand for itself. We have never sold anyone's e-mail address to any company, don't intend to do that, and have even gone after companies that have come onto this board and posted ads or e-mailed members.

I guess I'm just mistified as to why some of you now think we're just sell-outs.

AU Tiger and Jaques, please - enlighten me.

The way I understand this is Jim and Cyd are attempting to broaden their readership base by allowing PO and Gay.com to reprint artilcles that are already available here on Outsports. That will hopefully entice more queers with a pre-existing interest in sports, and queers who would like to learn more about sports, to the Outsports site to read and contribute. That's a GOOD thing. It gives us all the benefit of new perspectives, and gives Outsports more traffic, which can only help the cashflow and future business prospects for Outsports. If it enhances Outsports's viability, that only benefits those of us who love this site so much. Quite frankly, I've never understood how the site as presently constituted generates enough revenue to not only remain afloat, but to support Jim and Cyd in the style to which they're accustomed. I think it's valid to be concerned about intrusive advertising, e-mail marketing, revenue-driven content, etc., but I think given Jim and Cyd's sterling track record thus far, they deserve both the benefit of the doubt and a big thumbs up for taking steps to enhance the business model. Keep up the great work, guys, and keep on fighting the good fight.

As I bought the Sunday New York Times newspaper yesterday, I thought I would get the latest issue of GENRE magazine - to check out the Outsports column.

I applaud the concept of the Outsports column, but I wonder if GENRE is the right magazine for it. There were too many pictures of half-naked guys and fluff articles. I had a hard time finding the Outsports article itself!

Jim and Cyd, you are doing a great job with the Outsports column, but could your column be more successful in another gay magazine such as the ADVOCATE, which has more news and covers more issues relevant to the gay community?

Mikestead

Well said, Ted and I agree with your opinion.
It will be interesting to see how much of an increase there will be to Outsports due to the exposure. I know other websites that have improved with the increased hits, but there are others that have gone completely down the tubes with the increased traffic. Only time will tell...

Mikestead, thank you for making my point.

A point of clarification, though - it is not an "outsports" column - it is a genre article that I am writing.

Of all the major gay mags, Genre is probably the furthest from Outsports. Could there be a better place to take our message? Every month, tens of thousands of gay men get to open their Genre magazine and see stories of gay men playing hockey, basketball, water polo, wrestling, etc....

If we were going to do an "Outsports column," maybe we wouldn't choose Genre. But I know this: Genre is the only major gay magazine that has made any kind of commitment to sports. And I want to suppor them in that commitment.

Whether it's Genre or Planetout, the information and messaging that's out there is influencing and helping define the gay community...it's a never ending connection and process...Letting people know that being gay can include sports, and other activities not thought of as stereotypically gay, is very worthwhile to the continued evolution of the gay perspective. And evolution always ruffles feathers..

One day, gay athletes, whether professional or amateur, won't worry about coming out, they'll already be out to begin with...

Funny how Jacque Strappe seems to have disappeared. Well, it's not funny actually, it's lame.

And I wish Jim and Cyd would clarify this, but they haven't, so I will. They are not out buying Ferrari's and Rolex's and bangin' the ho's while guzzling Cristal from the proceeds because there are none. Maybe in the future there will be, but I can't tell you how many times I've been at Jim's house and he's working on the site at midnight, while having to go to his "real" job the next day. I would go insane to having to deal with all the work involved in getting the Clubhouse section in order, but they do it for free essentially, hoping that patience and a good business model will pay off in the future.

And really, if they were in it for the money, they sure picked a model almost guaranteed to struggle. Gay sports fans?!? They could make a quick score by having porn ads and links to Amazon etc. but they don't. I for one am glad that there's an anti-porn vibe here. I quit going to this one gay sports board on Yahoo because they had straight porno banner ads. The adminstrator tried to get them removed but due to reasons too boring to go in to, they couldn't. I just got tired of looking at pussy's being shoved in my face, so I stopped visiting that site.

I think we have it pretty good here and I think Jim and Cyd deserve the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Jim at Outsports ]

And I'm going to chime in and not only agree with Mr. Allen but also add my own admiration. Outsports is a hobby for Jim and Cyd, one they take very seriously, because, for reasons that should be obvious to us all....they love it. The pure and simple love of sports is something that (I think) we share and something that we take for granted. This site provides an incredible opportunity for all of us here to go to it daily and I for one am very thankful that I can enjoy it regularly. Believe me, I don't need any more sports sites to go to, but the very fact that 1) I like it and 2) (and perhaps more importantly) I know that Jim and Cyd WANT to do this, they do this FOR NOTHING, and the pure desire of wanting to support them for their efforts exists in my checking it out on a daily basis.

They are also always looking for the interesting stories, the ones that are based purely in sports and also where gay issues and sports meet. I asked in another thread "What would a gay sports magazine have as its content? What would make it any different than the Sports Illustrated or the ESPN that I get on a regular basis, or the specific sports magazines that are on the market?"

This is it, folks. I wish I could do more. (I've given them an ad in print! ) Right now that means supporting them and wishing them the best on whatever ventures they take with Outsports, because I know it is only going to get better. And that's a tall order, but an exciting one. The more we post, the more we read, the more we drive traffic here...the more join our little community on-line. How is that bad?

Thanks, Jim & Cyd!!

a few words from a kid at "U$C"...

Whenever someone tries to blaze a trail, the first to criticize are members of his or her own group. Whether that message is religious, political, or philosophical, the pioneer's toughest battles often come from his own campground. Odysseus had to battle his own men who questioned his leadership when venturing into the unknown.

I believe that it's important to branch out to more people. No man is an island. If we just keep amongst ourselves, we'll be doing a great disservice.

To some people, Outsports may not be doing earth-shattering work, but to a closeted college guy who sees a bit of hope and happiness when he gets on the boards (even though the pro-UCLA bias can get a bit annoying), Outsports means a lot.

I don't mean to be mushy, but you guys are doing a great service. Keep up the great work.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein

[quote]even though the pro-UCLA bias can get a bit annoying

---

That's your pro-Trojan bias speaking there. Jim went to Penn State, but has no great love for any college program really. Cyd is a Stanford grad, a big Cardinal fan in fact, so he's not going to be biased towards either Los Angeles school.

I guess being in first place of the Pac-10 creates a persecuation complex...

While it's somewhat disappointing to find out that Cyd and Jim aren't out "bangin the ho's" with the proceeds from Outsports, it's good to see this discussion taking place. And I hope that their efforts pay off for them...Sometimes our hobbies are more important than our jobs...

Yeah, Jim! You really pissed in my campfire when you announced that Jim and Cyd weren't bangin' the ho's with their OutSports riches.

Hey, when I first started logging onto this site about a year and a half ago, I was thinking, "I really hope this site makes something happen for these guys." At the same time, I knew that gay sports fans were a miniscule minority within a minority, and chances were slim.

If Jim and Cyd can help bring sports into the gay mainstream, even just a little, I applaud them every step of the way. Every week I read Bay Windows, one of Boston's weekly gay papers, and get kind of depressed. I read it for the news and features, and it really is a good publication (well, a tad liberal for my tastes, but that's another story). What gets me depressed is after reading every issue, I feel like I'm this total anomaly. First come the news and editorials, all with a screechingly (did I say "tad" before? I was being diplomatic) liberal bent, which always puts me off a bit. Then I get to The Arts ... page after page and article after article about theater, and of course musical theater, performance art, musical theater, a profile of a local gay artist, and did I mention musical theater? I grew up in Kansas, where you never heard the word "culture" unless it was preceded by "agri-". My idea of The Arts is a Tim McGraw concert.

When you're a conservative, Republican, and Catholic, you pretty much expect to be on the periphery of the gay population. What I just couldn't accept was the notion that gay men aren't into sports. Even when I used to hang out with the gay tennis group in Boston, the interest in sports was surprisingly minimal. But I kept the faith, and eventually happed upon this website.

PS: I'm thinking of starting up my own website for conservative, Republican, Catholic, sports-obsessed, gay NRA members. Zap me an email if you're interested, and I'll send you the URL once I have it all set up.


PPS: uh, that last bit was a joke.

Bravo for Jim and Cyd. I support your efforts. End of post!

[quote]PS: I'm thinking of starting up my own website for conservative, Republican, Catholic, sports-obsessed, gay NRA members. Zap me an email if you're interested, and I'll send you the URL once I have it all set up.

---

You should! Why the hell not? Although I'm way left politically, I think it's important that the wrong, er, other side of the coin is voiced in the gay press.

I'm goofing around with a personal home page that I'll point people to when I place a personals ad. But wow Rudy! Enough self-descriptions? And I thought that "Baseball lovin' opera queen" was a bit much!

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

[quote]Originally posted by BoSoxRudy:
I'm thinking of starting up my own website for conservative, Republican, Catholic, sports-obsessed, gay NRA members.

---

I've always thought the Indie Gay Forum needed a sports page!

[quote]Originally posted by BoSoxRudy:
When you're a conservative, Republican, and Catholic, you pretty much expect to be on the periphery of the gay population.

---

I'm not sure whether to mock because my lot is so much worse, or commiserate.
I am a minority of one. I am the only nonsmoking, left handed, six foot, three hundred pound, gay, Orthodox Jew in the world. There may be other left handed, six foot, three hundred pound, gay, Orthodox Jews, but they all smoke. They would have to.

[quote]Originally posted by BoSoxRudy:
Every week I read Bay Windows, one of Boston's weekly gay papers, and get kind of depressed. I read it for the news and features, and it really is a good publication (well, a tad liberal for my tastes, but that's another story). What gets me depressed is after reading every issue, I feel like I'm this total anomaly. First come the news and editorials, all with a screechingly (did I say "tad" before? I was being diplomatic) liberal bent, which always puts me off a bit. Then I get to The Arts ... page after page and article after article about theater, and of course musical theater, performance art, musical theater, a profile of a local gay artist, and did I mention musical theater? I grew up in Kansas, where you never heard the word "culture" unless it was preceded by "agri-". My idea of The Arts is a Tim McGraw concert.

---

Ha...you wouldn't like the Philadelphia Gay News much better. Last year during the 76ers run to the NBA finals they had one or two editorial cartoons that played up the gay/non-sports stereotype. I think I mentioned them in the old Outsports board at the time. Well, the cartoon in the current edition is just as bad. I don't have the paper anymore but basically it depicted two guys planning to go to Super Bowl parties--the straight guy ("YEAAHHH!! WE'RE GONNA CRUSH 'EM!!!" etc.) and the gay guy ("Should I wear an Eagles shirt? I don't know, green isn't really my color...") Pretty sad. So all hail Outsports! Keep up the good work, Jim and Cyd!

Joe, you're just being mean. The Philly paper is just opening the door on a truly terrible affliction. What can you do when your team colors are Winter, but you're a Summer? It's a dirty little secret people have had to live with for too long. I applaude the Philly gay paper for exposing this horrific affliction.

[Edited to make sure humor and irony are obvious]

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: jqueer ]

Well, you just have to cheer for a team whose colors suit you then, don't you?

[quote]Originally posted by Trojan110:
(even though the pro-UCLA bias can get a bit annoying

---

If Outsports had a dollar for every time Cyd has blasted his good buddy, Steve Lavin, Jim wouldn't have to be up until midnight editing the clubhouse section.

First off, I wasn?t griping about Outsports, which I consider a fine site, in fact the only national gay sports site there is.

The problem with so many regional gay papers is that with few exceptions, there is little or no sports coverage, except for special events.

My problem with planetout and gay.com are the fact that except when it was gay.net there was no sports coverage at all on planetout, and the recent content of gay.com is simply a mimic of Men?s Fitness, with articles that only serve as lead-ins to t-shirts, videos and magazine subscriptions.

If you need a primer on the problems with planetout and gay.com, just do a google search with the word "gay media merger" and "controversy."

Examples:

1.
Planetout?s abject censorship of XY. That content merger was cancelled when VP Susan Shulman deleted an entire feature article written by XY editor about the hypocrasy of potential advertisers Abercrombie & Fitch and the like refusing to buy ads in XY while buying ads in other "gay mainstream" publications. XY has a history of sassy youth-oriented content which caters to A&E types but also parodies them.

Any web site or writer who dares to do this runs the risk of censorship from Planetout et al. They have no interest in criticizing any potential advertiser.

This creates an editorial policy that caters to advertisers, crushes individual thought and opinion, and continues the bias toward advertisers who only want gay dollars, including alcohol , cigarette and other harmful products.


2. Planetout?s bias toward the Millennium March & HRC.
HRC created the March of 2000 without the input of many groups. It is commonly known that Elizabeth Birch sees herself as the queen of gay rights, and Planetout partnered with HRC to make a pile of cash. That pile of cash disappeared, most gay papers reporrted it, but planetout and gay.com, media sponsors of the event, offered minimal coverage of the controversy, and little criticism, except for Rex Wockner?s opinions, and even his column included a "hands-off" disclaimer. No other writing about the huge financial malfeasance was covered. It was buried quickly in the pretty multimedia coverage of the event.

A year later, HRC comes up with $8 million to buy an entire building for their huge lobbying bureacracy. Where did that money come from?


3. Planetout?s debt and merger.
The merger proved that the two competing sites could not survive. Massive layoffs after huge overspending proved a small profit only after the high-paid executives got their payoffs and were laid off.

Currently the content of the two sites in virtually the same. You have a few voices serving as the voice of millions. That is a monopoly of information and advertiser base. This has already happened with Windows Media and several regional gay newspapers, which now feature the same syndicated content and blandified opinions.

This merger only happened after LPI/The Advocate backed out of that merger, which is said to be additionally because Planetout expected LPI to carry its debt.

4.
Economic lies
Planetout and gay.com use Witeck-Combs marketing surveys, which are based on surveys from subscribers to magazines like OUT and Genre, primarily white male home-owning affluent gay professionals. While it?s nice to know there are some, they are not the majority of GLBT people. Entire classes of people and women are ignored, and our economic status is warped toward affluence, This creates content that caters to upscale advertisers, and then mainstream "straight" media looks at us all a bunch of guppies.

That leaves important social issues left out of the loop. Straight-written gay stories focus on gay cruises, light entertainment, and barebacking as a hobby of circuit muscle guys. This is a small minority of our community that, due to its photogenic sex appeal, gets more coverage than a middle class lesbian fighting for custody rights.

5.
Back to objectivity and sports writing.
While Outsports? coverage is broad in appeal and content, ranging from humor to pro coverage and any major homophobia controversy, how will it be effected in coverage of Gay Games? With one of your editor/writers on the Federation Board, and Gay.com/Planetout being a major media sponsor, how will coverage of this large-scale event be effected?

Had Outsports been around in 1998 for Gay Games V and the multi-million dollar fiasco that the Dutch hosts created, as well as dozens of cases of problems with merging age brackets in swimming, -they even ran out of medals in some events - would they have honestly covered it, with ties to a sponsor that wants to make the event and its coverage look good?

One participant from Denver was actually killed in Amsterdam by an irate cab driver who tired to flee the scene. He was an employee of the Gill Foundation. Where was the coverage of that?

The former Executive Director of the Federation sued the Federation for defamation when he quit. No gay press pursued why this happened.

Certainly Outsports might have covered it after the fact, but what level of investigation would have happened with financial backing of gay.com et al breathing down their neck?

If there are any future controversies with Gay Games (their recent loss in revenue, the collapse of six gay publications already happened), what sort of balanced coverage can we expect? Outsports may cover it, but I sincerely doubt that gay.com will feature it prominently when their editorial focus has clearly been about promoting products like Queer As Folk DVDs and Kleptomaniac clothing.

Anything that will deter click-through sales will not be posted on these sites.

6. Lie Down With Dogs
And people who do business with companies that do the things mentioned in my earlier post should consider the ramifications. I?m not going into all the evils of AOL again, except to reiterate that Planetout took over the gay content when AOL washed their hands of it.

7. Ministry of Anti-Sex
AOL censors gay profiles. Planetout/gay.com limits adult content profiles to paid areas. Planetout and gay.com aided the exaggerated syphilis chat room scares, turned over profile info, allows dozens of porno sites to use false profiles to lead people to porno sites, yet limits the adult content of profiles while hawking porno on its front page. Essentially, this comes down to "We'll use porn to make money, but not provide sexual expression freedoms."


Whew! Well, that's probably a bit much for most of you to handle. Facts can be difficult. Feel free to return to your chummy jokes about "bangin? ho?s" and USC.

Well that was interesting, right up until that final slam at all the rest of us. Undeserved, and rude. Piss off.

how did my school get wrapped up in that manifesto?

Come down off the soapbox once in a while and you'll find alot more here than "bangin ho's" and USC (not there is anything wrong with talking about the University of South Carolina! ).

``With one of your editor/writers on the Federation Board.''

That relationship ended last year. And I can tell you the Federation and the Sydney Games are less than pleased with our coverage because we accurately reported things weren't going go swimmingly for 2002.

[quote]First off, I wasn't griping about Outsports, which I consider a fine site, in fact the only national gay sports site there is.

---

Oh, really? Hmmmm......

[quote]So, how much money did they pay you guys to sell out? Are you guys going to do what gay.conglom has already done?
- charge for services that were once free?
- add porno to your banner ads while hypocritically saying you're not like other sites?
- sell all your member info to every gay list around, including AOL, who censors gay profiles, fills chat rooms with born-again christians, and donates millions to anti-gay Exodus-spawning colleges?
- oh well, I guess outsports' bland, 'straight-acting' diatribes will become part of the gay borg, and just be assimilated. Too bad.

---

Maybe we have a different concept of how to use the English language, but that sure as hell sounds like griping to me, bitter, not-based-in-reality griping. I'm sure the rest of your post was interesting but I'll never know because I scrolled right past it as soon as read the first sentence. But I get it!! Jacque Strappe has deigned to come here and enlighten us in-bred yokels, with our jokes about ho's and USC, about how to break out of the Borg collective we so hideously find ourselves trapped in.

Or not.

geez, with all this griping and whining, I feel like I'm with Mr. Lavin.

[quote]Originally posted by Jaques Strappe:
So, how much money did they pay you guys to sell out? Are you guys going to do what gay.conglom has already done?

- charge for services that were once free?

- add porno to your banner ads while hypocritically saying you're not like other sites?

- sell all your member info to every gay list around, including AOL

---

[quote] First off, I wasn't griping about Outsports, which I consider a fine site,

---

What effrontery!

Unfortunately, your previous post contradicts your statement.

Those comments were questioning what OutSports "could" become if it became merely a branch of gay.com, which, it seems, for now, won't happen.

I can't believe the petty vindictiveness of this board, and the persistent intrusion of the editors.

If henpecking at my comments makes you feel superior, fire away. It doesn't diminish the overwhelming facts of Planetout Partners' corruption, duplicity, journalistic chicanery and business fraud.

I don't how you can expect anyone to take your postings seriously, Mr. Jacques Strappe. Even setting aside your clever yet base cover name, you've been a consistent source of bitterness and bile whatever topic you post on...Is there something wrong with the water in Ohio or what?

I don't how you can expect anyone to take your postings seriously, Mr. Jacques Strappe. Even setting aside your clever yet base cover name, you've been a consistent source of bitterness and bile whatever topic you post on...Is there something wrong with the water in Ohio or what?

Well said, Bryan....I don't know if "Jaques Strappe" simply needs to switch to decaf, if his ego is the size of the grand canyon (after "subtly" attacking EVERY other member of this fine site on multiple occasions), or if he is some homophobe trying to draw the ire of all of us "queers" that he so vehemently despises.

As redsoxbreath said with a lot more civility than I could muster "Jaques'" reprehensible comments about all the outstanding members of this site are "undeserved and rude....piss off"....free speech may be granted in this country -- however, if someone chooses to unfairly and maliciously attack hundreds of others (completely unprovoked I might add) I, for one, will not sit quietly by while he amuses himself at our expense....coincidentally, notice Jaques posts have NO comments pertaining to sports, which is the primary purpose of this site if I'm not mistaken.

As Jack Buck said on Sept. 21, 2001 upon the resolution of the baseball season following the attacks of 9/11, "we won't start the fight but we will end it"....are you listening, J.S.?

While I think this discussion is valid, it has become an attack on one poster, so I'm locking the thread. Thank you all for your input on this issue.