Can I (dare I) restart the PlanetOut thread?

I'm a little late to the discussion. I was out of the office for a week and didn't have access to a computer. I just wanted to throw my two cents in...

I agree with a lot of what Jacques Strappe said, actually. AND, I also agree (very strongly, in fact) that Jim and Cyd are doing a great thing by bringing Outsports material to a broader market.

If I didn't feel like I knew Jim and Cyd, I'd probably be on Jacques side of this debate. I have confidence in Jim & Cyd's integrity and mission for Outsports, though.

I do think Jacques is right on with his characterization of the gay media. Marginalized populations of all kinds--racial, religious, sexual, you name it--still have a hard time getting full and honest recognition in mainstream media even today, and from how I see/read things, the major gay media outlets are no different.

If change is to occur, however, it's more likely to happen if it comes from the inside. That is, the mainstream/major gay media outlets are more likely to develop and evolve as a result of a partnership with Outsports rather than from outside criticism and pressure.

I could share dozens and dozens of examples, but instead hope that as on on-line community we can temper our deserved cynicism with the hope that Outsports can be involved in meaningful social change (am I overstating the case here?) through these new partnerships.

Again, while I don't know all of the facts J.S. mentions, I do agree with many of his criticisms of PlanetOut, et al. I also think, though, that Outsports, via Jim and Cyd, can lead the way in changing such narrowly defined media for the better.

I don't think many of us objected or disagreed with Monsieur Strappe's comments about PlanetOut. It was the way he tried to belittle Jim and Cyd and many of us posters who use this site for its intended purpose. If he had ever once entered into a Sports Related discussion instead of only coming here to rant, we'd have been more inclined to take him seriously.

That said, the Outsports Media Empire continues to grow! One of our beloved leaders, Jim Buzinski, is quoted in the latest issue of the Advocate for a piece about the lack of openly gay Winter Olympians. Now I know some cynical types will find a way to blame the Advocate for everything from the Holcaust to world hunger, but I say bravo Jim. I am always proud to know that Outsports is out there letting the world know that gay men can love sports.

I appreciate a calm, supportive comment, compared to the rabid uninformed defensive attacks.

I understand being criticized for posting a well-informed, if not opinionated, post on the gay media topic whose facts elude the general naive consumer.

But then - this is really funny - I'm also attacked for not being a part of the many other sports-related chats.

As a former NCAA college athlete, and current professor in Media at a small Ohio university, I find it amazing how the social constructs of conformity apply in the same way with gay men in sports as they do in other groups. The almost tribal sniffing out of one who is "not one of us" is amusing at best. At worst, it's a social pattern that drove me away from sports in college, and seems to continue in gay sports as well.

To answer other swipes, I don't join in most posts because I either agree, or don't care to add to a banal debate over religion (Christian athletes; oh, the stories I could tell, but this is not the place), mooning over cute athletes, or debating who will win which championship.

The majority of the discussions are a combination of the same behavior in straight men; "how 'bout 'dem Lakers?" and ogling cheerleaders, but in this group, ogling the players with the same dopey sexism that straight men exhibit.

The relationship between gay stereotypes, perception, and breaking it, specifically in the realm of sports, are what interest me, and many others.

Outsports' being subsumed into a media cabal that informed media critics know is inherently corrupt is a cause for concern.

While it may retain its integrity through the assumed role as the preimminent gay sports media, I wonder how much of the recent burst of fame came about through these very boards, where its founders allowed spurious rumor-mongering about players' sexuality.

The major media came swooping down, and subsequently, three of said players were traded, let go or retired.

Consider the effects of such media, its differences from straight media, and its similarities.

Or just continue the chat about Adam Vinatieri's leather pants; certainly worth chatting about, but don't expect me to join in.

And your point is?

Hey guys, JS is baiting us again, daring us to send him into another tirade. He's had the last word, now would someone lock this thread, please?

Thread will not be locked. This falls within fair criticism.

I wondering why outsports and its members are the target for such bantering. All the negative comments about outsports by Jock Strap are pure speculation. All the negative comments about planetout, gay.com and the media by Jock Strap are aimed at the wrong audience. These issues should be expressed to the parties you dislike Mr. Strap, not us. Or maybe you have. And they took you just as seriously as you take our discussions.
If you had respect for Cyd and Jim and the outsports members you wouldn't be so hostile. But you have no respect for anyone here or the gangs at the other places. So your rants continue down the line. You stop here for awhile with your offensive, condescending attitude until we ignore or laugh you on to your next stop.
Personally, I love this site. The owners have enlightened me and the world with their pioneering efforts. I will defend this site to the end because I am gay, an outsports member, a former NCAA baseball player and an individual unique voice of one. And if we took every Falwell and Robertson and Strap seriously then the towel would have been tossed in long ago. So Mr. Strap, or Mr. gym teacher (as your profile states) or Mr. Professor of Media ( as you posted), take your battle to the war and stop aiming your blanks at us.

[quote]Originally posted by Jaques Strappe:
...mooning over cute athletes...

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Excuse me "professor", but I think you may have misused the verb moon. This is mooning:

Is this what you meant?

Be patient, it takes a while to load but it's worth it.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

So JS--do you expect gay men to always break rank with straight men in terms of how we act? So if straight men are driven by sex--do you actually expect gay men aren't??

I don't think the point is that we have to break every stereotype--to me, it's more about accepting the stereotypes but also showing that we're more & different from singular perceptions--not that I think these days many people have singular ideas about gays. So what if most gay guys do not care about sports? I'd just like to be able to enjoy them to whatever extent I want AS a gay man, and not have to hide that. So what if most gay men ogle other men like straight men ogle women? I'd just like to be able to ogle at will, and not hide it just because it's directed at another guy.

Theoretical or philosophical attempts at perfection and purity [whatever the hell that may mean] I find pretty useless. As illustrated by the fact that you're clearly aware of Adam Vinatieri's leather pants: ogle all you want, comment all you want, but just don't expect the rest of us to display a similar sense of tease-n-go comment that you have to obvious stimulation.

As for "founders allowed spurious rumor-mongering about players sexuality": you expect that somehow comments made on a discussion board are responsible for a major league team trading/retiring players? Oh would-to-god we had such power! If in fact the founders of any discussion board were responsible for every statement on every board, we'd have no free speech at all. The only way speculation about someone's sexuality is negative is if you think that being gay is negative. I don't share that view.

The founders of this site have devoted countless hours, and an enormous amount of personal sweat equity in starting, maintaining, and promoting this site. All for no compensation...so far. If they cross-promote with a gay "cabal"--more power to them. What evidence do you have that PNO et al., are any more corrupt than AOL/Time-Warner et al.?? I'm looking forward to the day when they can take their rightful place in Sports Illustrated/ESPN etc. as a legitimate sports viewpoint.

Outsports integrity and success is not going to be based on any one thread or comment. It's going to be based on their ability to continue to deliver content that is unique, stimulating and knowledgable. The opportunity to add our occasional voice to the content in all of our diversity--and even in our stereotypical similarities--can only add to their eventual success.

As you have found, "sniffing out one who is 'not one of us'" can not only be hurtful, but also needlessly destructive.

Eating our own Outsports, especially when it's clearly a unique fledgling, I can't imagine would serve anything more than a Pyrrhic victory. I'd like to challenge you to make suggestions that you believe would make Outsports a more viable, and potentially profitable enterprise.

In my ideal world, Adam would donate his pants to Outsports--you'd win them, and a blurb would appear in Sports Illustrated about the former athlete who wore them to teach his next media class!

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Brent ]

Okay, I guess I just took the bait as well, but this will probably be my only post with regard to this topic.

JS, with respect to your recent posts criticizing Outsports, this is my take.

You made a list of "facts." Then you let us in on your "well-informed" opinion that is very critical (and in my view unfair), which is fine. But as a bonus, you let all of us know that we are stupid and/or naive for not seeing it your way. Further, you are then amused when some of us actually become critical of your viewpoint, because this is like some typical sociological conformity thing. Did you really expect all of us to say, "Wow, I see the light now, how stupid and naive I must've been."?

I have no problem with your criticism regarding Outsports' recent transactions. In fact, some of your points are valid. But some of us just got a bad taste in our mouths when you proceeded to slam Outsports, Jim, Cyd, and all the other members unfairly. You could have made your argument without doing that. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the rest of us are entitled as well.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: pat125 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Jaques Strappe:


As a former NCAA college athlete, and current professor in Media at a small Ohio university...


To answer other swipes, I don't join in most posts because I either agree, or don't care to add to a banal debate over religion , mooning over cute athletes, or debating who will win which championship.

The majority of the discussions are a combination of the same behavior in straight men; "how 'bout 'dem Lakers?" and ogling cheerleaders, but in this group, ogling the players with the same dopey sexism that straight men exhibit.

The relationship between gay stereotypes, perception, and breaking it, specifically in the realm of sports, are what interest me, and many others.


Or just continue the chat about Adam Vinatieri's leather pants; certainly worth chatting about, but don't expect me to join in.

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Interesting! Did you recently get promoted from gym teacher (as your profile says) to college professor? By any chance is your real name George O'Leary?

Well regardless, I'm sure whichever (if either) it is, you certainly know the definition of the word hypocrite. See, your profile also says your favorite athletes are "rugby players whose shorts come off". Way to break those gay stereotypes you so pompously accuse the rest of us of perpetuating! And yet you belittle those that would participate in discussions about Adam Vinatieri's leather pants or ogling players. Hello, Mr. Pot, Mr. Kettle calling.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

Apologies for the personal stuff. I guess I just have developed such a fondness for Outsports and most of its members that I get a bit riled up with stuff like this. I won't post anymore regarding this subject. Thanks, m1.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

Please avoid personal comments and post within the topic: Outsports, PlanetOut, and the state of the current gay media. Thanks

[quote]Originally posted by Jaques Strappe:
To answer other swipes, I don't join in most posts because I either agree, or don't care to add to a banal debate over religion (Christian athletes; oh, the stories I could tell, but this is not the place), mooning over cute athletes, or debating who will win which championship.

The majority of the discussions are a combination of the same behavior in straight men; "how 'bout 'dem Lakers?" and ogling cheerleaders, but in this group, ogling the players with the same dopey sexism that straight men exhibit.

---

Gee. So sorry that we don't meet your obviously lofty standards.

[quote] The relationship between gay stereotypes, perception, and breaking it, specifically in the realm of sports, are what interest me, and many others.

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Yes. There are so many threads on this, as compared to the so-called "banal" discussions.

Is there some reason you are unable to understand that most of us are here to talk about sports and guys, because in much of the real world we can't do that?

[quote] Outsports' being subsumed into a media cabal that informed media critics know is inherently corrupt is a cause for concern

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Inherently corrupt? How so? And can you show me an example of a media cabal that isn't inherently corrupt by the same definition?

[quote] While it may retain its integrity through the assumed role as the preimminent gay sports media, I wonder how much of the recent burst of fame came about through these very boards, where its founders allowed spurious rumor-mongering about players' sexuality.

The major media came swooping down, and subsequently, three of said players were traded, let go or retired.

---

Could you be more specific here? Otherwise it's impossible to reply adequately. Perhaps the reason the players were traded/let go/retired was because they weren't good enough anymore?

Knock it off, Mr. Strap! Your haughty, self-aggrandizing attitude has no place on this forum.

What I find disappointing about JS's post, aside from the need to berate people, is how he's ultimately rather provincial.

I'm not amazed that a prof of media would be super-knowledgeable about *gasp* the media and how it works; what's amazing to me is that he derides people for not having his level of knowledge and more importantly, interest. I guarantee you that I know more about opera, say, than almost anyone here (hey Wurm, where you been?) but I don't care if people aren't as knowledgeable/interested.

Of course, that's an apples and oranges comparison. How the media works and influences our lives is an important topic but frankly, this is the wrong site for it. As would be a site devoted to Queer as Folk, Turkish weightlifters, the latest line from Versace or any of the other numerous areas of interest that gay men have. There's numerous media-related sites out there; it would be absurd for me to go there and complain that there's no discussion of the baseball contraction issue, for example.

And what's really disappointing to me is that JS, by smugly putting down people here for our woeful ignorance, makes people ignore the message AND want to kill the messenger (not literally, calm the heck down). Where's the links to other sites that will back up his claims? Where's the background context to his assertations? As was pointed out, you accuse us all of being brainless sheep, but then don't give us non-specialists the tools to really think of the issues. I'm not THAT interesed enough in the topic to spend hours searching Google for related info.

Frankly, you remind me a lot of a guy on the Queer as Folk board at MBTV who rants and raves about what gay culture should be like and how we're all part of lobotomized gay collective, being lead to slaughter by the Marketing Department at Gay Moneymaking Companies Inc. But then he doesn't have any suggestions about what he wants to see gay life be like. It's easy to sit in your Ivory Tower and take potshots at the hapless masses below, like an intellectual Charles Whitman, but until you provide some help for the uninitiated/less interested and for f**ks sake, learn to PLAY NICELY, then you just come across as a small little man who needs to get out of his academic cloister and mingle a little.

And your claim that Outsports is directly responsible for ending/altering the careers of 3 athletes: on the old board, there was a lot of speculation about who was and who wasn't. That's lessened on the new board and really, it's no different than straight guys on Cowboys message boards speculating about whether Troy Aikman is or isn't. Unless you can provide names and sources where speculation here ended up in the mainstream media--who in my experience aren't in the habit of publishing "Eric Crouch likes theatre, he just has to be gay, he just HAS TO, I tells ya!" kinds of speculation--your comment is no different than a "My mailman told me that a friend of his who has a sister who knows the secretary who works for a bookeeper at the firm that does accounting for [Insert name of outed player here] that he's gay" kind of risible nonsense that is rightly mocked.

And thank you George Viking for your Pot/Kettle example.

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

I wanted to comment on this issue because I actually agree with many of the points JS made in his initial post. Further, it seemed to me that a lot of folks here were reacting to him/his style of presentation rather than some of the substantive ideas he was putting forth.

Several folks have commented directly on what JS has stated, which is good, but it looks to me like we're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

I am definitely suspicious of both PlanetOut, and The Advocate and Out magazine, too. Judging from how narrow-minded and bottom-line driven (no pun intended) mainstream gay media tend to be, I think it's healthy for at least one of us to be concerned about whether a connection with PlanetOut is a good thing.

I know that some people have reacted strongly to JS's comments because they share an affinity for OUTSPORTS, its creators, and the community of gay athletes and sports fans these pages have mobilized.

We should all keep in mind, though, that we do not, and simply can not, all agree on every issue. In fact, some of us SHOULD bring critical perspectives into the conversation, and we should have riled up debates and heated discussions.

Hell, I've mixed it up my fair share of times on these boards...The point I want to get at, though, is that I believe Jacques Strappe DOES belong here. JS got a lot of grief, including some really personal stuff and declarations that he wasn't welcome.

Does that mean the next time I disagree, I'll be told I'm no longer welcome here? Sure, I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but only partially. It sure as Hell isn't my intent to lecture us on "playing nice," but I will advocate for some boundaries and for some respectful dialouge.

That's how I'd like to be treated, and I think it's how we'd all like to be treated.

Jacques has as much right to post here as anyone.

[quote]Originally posted by The B Man:
Does that mean the next time I disagree, I'll be told I'm no longer welcome here?

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If you directly and persistently question Cyd's and Jim's integrity, and pointedly insult the board's collective intelligence, you may stir up some feelings, yes. If you drop in out of the blue with a chip on your shoulder the size of Idaho, sympathy won't be high on the list of likely responses.

It's weird, something bad must have happened recently to Jaques, or maybe someone hacked his account. Back in November he was an affable and interactive contributor to the Outsports discussion board. Jaques, whatever the reason, it's too bad you felt you had to do what you did to alienate me (as generic "Outsports member") and further isolate yourself.

[Snide comment deleted, sorry.]

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

``Go off your meds, did you?''

Hey Red Sox Breath: Those are the kinds of attacks that are uncalled for. Make your point but don't resort to such snide asides that are not germane to what you disagree with.
Thanks

[quote]Originally posted by The B Man:
I am definitely suspicious of both PlanetOut, and The Advocate and Out magazine, too. Judging from how narrow-minded and bottom-line driven (no pun intended) mainstream gay media tend to be, I think it's healthy for at least one of us to be concerned about whether a connection with PlanetOut is a good thing.

---

Is there an example of media, mainstream or not, gay or not, that isn't bottom-line driven? However altruistic their motives, they're not in it for charity.

[quote]
The point I want to get at, though, is that I believe Jacques Strappe DOES belong here. JS got a lot of grief, including some really personal stuff and declarations that he wasn't welcome.

Does that mean the next time I disagree, I'll be told I'm no longer welcome here? Sure, I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but only partially. It sure as Hell isn't my intent to lecture us on "playing nice," but I will advocate for some boundaries and for some respectful dialouge.

That's how I'd like to be treated, and I think it's how we'd all like to be treated.

---

I agree. No one should be told they're not welcome just because their viewpoints differ.

[quote]Originally posted by The B Man:
I wanted to comment on this issue because I actually agree with many of the points JS made in his initial post. Further, it seemed to me that a lot of folks here were reacting to him/his style of presentation rather than some of the substantive ideas he was putting forth.

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Without commenting on what I thought about Jacques' substance, I do think it is legitimate to comment on the form of someone's posts here, particularly when those comments were as venemous as Jacques'. I know some people complain that the message and the medium should be considered separately, but he wasn't writing considered commentary about the injustice of gay media. He was personally and unnecessarily abusive. The tricky part about responding to someone like that is to call him or her about the abusiveness without resorting to abusiveness oneself.

[quote]Originally posted by jqueer:
The tricky part about responding to someone like that is to call him or her about the abusiveness without resorting to abusiveness oneself.

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Right you are, jqueer, and Jim, I apologize. Honestly, in this case, I find I am neither mature enough nor dispassionate enough to respond respectfully to JS's posts. Forgive me for acting like a bratty 12-year-old.

[quote]The tricky part about responding to someone like that is to call him or her about the abusiveness without resorting to abusiveness oneself.

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I think it is possible. I thought Brent's post was an excellent example.

There are many parts of J.S.'s original post I agree with. However, I disagree that we are "ogling the players with the same dopey sexism that straight men exhibit". Personally, I watch sports for the pure enjoyment of the event, not to watch hot bodies. However, if after watching the sport I happen to notice a great looking man on the team, is that bad? Isn’t that natural? Sexist straight men ogling over half dressed cheerleaders is a bad comparison to me admiring Adam Vineteri after watching him pull off two amazing games.

All I know is that Jim and Cyd and all of you guys here at Outsport have completely changed my life when it comes to sports. When I was growing up and heck even through college I never participated in any organized sport, except for skiing and that is really more of an individual sport. I was the typical orchestra kid (still love music), and actually loathed sports, mostly (I see now)because I never thought that I would fit in in that environment due to the fact that I was the big kid, and the fact that I had some bad experiences in the locker rooms during gym, but that's another story. I see also that I envyed the athletes and since I wasn't one I started to hate all sports.

Where I was going with this was that about 5 months ago I ran across this site and it's like my mindset took 180. The realization that gay guys do play sports, and enjoy sports, turned my life around. I've started making more goals, working out and meeting other gay guys that like to watch sports. It's something to do other than drink beer, and it's a healthy environment. Now, regardless of weather people watch sports to watch Adam's arse, or to actually take notes on the plays and keep stats in their heads, watching sports gives each individual something different, so I say let the crotch checking threads continue, just as well as the pickem games. I'm usually a lot more vocal in the hot jock talk and non sports related sections of the board than in the rest, mainly because I know more about those sections. The reason for this is because I'm still learning. You may not see a whole lot of posts from the in the other areas but you can bet your arse I'm reading those too. I thought it was pretty cool that me the kid that knew nothing about football hardly when I started the pickem, ended up making the high score on the superbowl pickem. See people can be taught. lol

So, the short and sweet of it is, I love this site, and love a lot of the guys here, and yes we get a little territorial because when someone starts picking on one of our own we naturally go to their defense.

Well, thanks for reading. I'm sure I'll be seeing your guys around.

MSU- GREAT POST! I could have wrtten the same words - but you already did so I don't have to - Thanx. Its great to be able to go to work & discuss sports with the other cops. Of course I don't tell em what a stud Adam Vinatieri is or how I know who Wally Szerbiak is( my spelling sucks) - but sports are FUN for me now. This summer my partner & I are goin to see how many midwest ball parks we can hit in a week ! I LOVE OUTSPORTS!

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: copman ]

I agree with copman--excellent post, MSU!!! I just want to say one thing on a portion of what you wrote:

[quote]I'm usually a lot more vocal in the hot jock talk and non sports related sections of the board than in the rest, mainly because I know more about those sections. The reason for this is because I'm still learning. You may not see a whole lot of posts from the in the other areas but you can bet your arse I'm reading those too. I thought it was pretty cool that me the kid that knew nothing about football hardly when I started the pickem, ended up making the high score on the superbowl pickem. See people can be taught. lol

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For everyone who is in a similar situation--just learning about sports in general, or learning about a sport they didn't know about before--it's safe to say that there is a lot of sports knowledge available here, so if you have questions feel free to ask them!

[quote]Originally posted by MSUBobcat:
So, the short and sweet of it is, I love this site, and love a lot of the guys here, and yes we get a little territorial because when someone starts picking on one of our own we naturally go to their defense.

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Bobcat, no one has said it better. We love you too buddy, and Outsports is the best.

[quote]Bobcat, no one has said it better. We love you too buddy, and Outsports is the best.

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Oh love is in the air! HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY!

MSUBob, great post. My sentiments exactly!