Hi. I'm the sports reporter Jim mentioned in the previous post. I'm working on a story about Gay Fandom and I'd love to ask a few questions. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Ofcourse, if anyone would like to privately e-mail me I can be reached at swebby@mercurynews.com.

So...

Some sports teams - The SF Giants, the Phillies, etc. - have "Gay Days." Is this because they are responding to the community or because they see an economic opportunity? Both? Why do you think that some sports - i.e football, hockey - haven't had similar events? (If they have, please correct me.)

Is there any hesitancy among any of you in supporting a pro team in a league that has no openly gay players and still has the occasional player make Rockeresque comments? Why or why not?

Is it important to identify yourself as a Gay Fan? Why? Or is it apples and oranges? (footballs and hockey pucks, whatever bad analogy you can think of.)

And lastly, tell me your fan stories. Which teams and players do you love? Why?

Thank you so much for your help and thanks Jim for introducing me.

Fire away!

A little of both, though perhaps more that they want to sell tickets.

There are probably more than I'm listing (including some sociological issues), but as I see it, successful Gay Days need the following ingredients: (1) a forward-thinking team that needs to sell tickets, (2) the tickets can't be too expensive, (3) it helps if the sport is popular enough/\"mainstream\" enough.

NFL teams only have #3, unless you're the Arizona Cardinals.

NHL teams needed to sell tickets but they were way too expensive for half-decent seats, and the sport isn't popular in the USA outside of certain cities (and in those cities it's not easy to get a large block of tickets). Of course, ticket prices and ticket availability may change drastically if/when the NHL comes back.

A team or league can't force a player to come out, so that can't be blamed on them. So as long as there's a proper response to Rockeresque comments, there's not much of a need to boycott.

It depends on the context. For a story like yours, obviously yes. For being part of Gay Day groups, sure. For just going to a game on my own or with friends or relatives, no.

It's late here in the east and I have to get to bed, but for now suffice it to say that I've been a Philadelphian all my life so the Philly teams and players get my support -- even when they're a bunch of overpaid underachieving zombies who whine about how the manager's too tough on them but when they replace him with an easygoing country bumpkin they proceed to play like...a bunch of overpaid underachieving zombies. :mad: Feel free to e-mail me if you need any elaboration. wink

[ May 02, 2005, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

To me, its a mixture of both. With teams in major metropolitan areas like SF and Philadelphia, its a response to the changing constituency and make up of their fan base. Also as homosexuals become a marketing demographic, it only makes sense to target that segment through events such as Gay Days. As to why this phenomenon hasn't spread to other sports, I can only speculate that other sports still aren't as mainstream as baseball. Baseball is a huge part of Americana and through the game a lot of cultural advancements have been made, most noteably the breaking of the color barrier. Baseball is the archetypal 'bring your family to the game' sport so it seems natural that it would be the first to actively reach out to the homosexual community.

Not really, as of now, being straight is still the status quo in professional sports...if one didn't support a team without any openly gay players then one would have no team to support. In my book I can still support a team where a player makes Rockeresque comments as long as the team deals with it fairly and accordingly. Hopefully for every Rocker or Shockey, there's a Ken Griffey, Jr. out there making positive statements. In the end, my support for a team won't change based on the statements of a select few.

Absolutely not. The way I see it sports is just another one of those shared experiences that defines and creates culture. Why delineate yourself from the average fan? Sports to me is a homogenizing effect and a means for me to relate to other people. Its because of sports that I'll always be able to talk to a random stranger. Its because of fandom that I can hug the stranger sitting next to me after a big play. Its because of the shared allegiance that I can feel a connection with the random stranger wearing a Cal sweatshirt walking down the street. Why break that common bond?

My favorite players usually follow a certain model...the Brett Favres, the Darin Erstads, the Jason Variteks. The influential leaders that carry themselves well off the field and are true, fair athletes. The players I respect the most probably are the thousands of NCAA athletes playing in minor sports with no hope of profession success sheerly out of the love of the game. Those people to me are probably the best athletes in the world. Despite this though, I still have an insatiable love for the Lakers and all the egos, arrogance and drama that go along with it. Maybe its cause my Dad left the games on when I was a kid growing up but its just one of those things that can't be explained and will forever elude me. That's OK though, sports after all is a crazy, always changing world that sometimes defies explanation.

[ May 02, 2005, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: igortvi ]

1.
I would agree that it is probably a bit of both. Personally I think basketball and hockey have not done it, because the arenas are much smaller, and there are fewer game day tickets available typically.

2. No problem supporting teams with no openly gay players. What they do in their private life has no bearing on what teams I cheer for. If there was an openly gay Chicago Cub player, I still would not cheer for them.

3. Not important to label myself a gay fan. Being gay happens to be one part of me. It does not define me.

4. I grew up in Chicago, so many of the teams I root for are from there: White Sox, Bulls, Bears. I've lived in Miami for 13 years, so I also pull for the Marlins, Dolphins, Heat and Panthers. On the college side, I bleed green and white for Michigan State, but I've also been a Clemson fan since I was a kid in Chicago, and I also now pull for the Miami Hurricanes, since that's where my partner got his degree, even though he hates sports of any kind. He has consented to letting me turn our new den into a sports paradise with shelves to display my collection of Riddell mini-football helmets. He has been very understanging over the years at my having to wake up at 3am to catch the West Coast scores on SportCenter, and driving 10 miles north on US1 the evening the Marlins won the 2003 World Series, so I could be a part of the celebration....also waking him up screaming in 2000 when Michigan State beat Florida for the NCAA BBall championship. He's the best!

During a staff meeting at work a couple of years back, I was accused of being a straight man trapped in a gay man's body, because I knew who won the World Series, the Super Bowl, the NBA Championship, and the Stanley Cup......in 1986.

I don't really have favorite players that I will watch no matter what. I follow what the local players are doing & pull for them to do well, so the team will succeed.

[ May 03, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: MiamiSpartan ]

>Some sports teams - The SF Giants, the Phillies, etc. - have "Gay Days."


I just cruised on over to the Giants' web site and used the search engine for "gay" and "homosexual." Nothing of value was returned.

If the Giants are hosting a Gay Day this year, I'd like to read about it on their web site.

Did the Giants have a Gay Day last year? I don't recall reading about such an event in either the straight or gay press.

One other point, I'd be curious to know if the Giants have ever participated in SF's gay pride parade.

[ May 03, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: MPetrelis ]

I stand corrected, thanks to Google, which just gave me this link, showing there will be not one, but two!, gay days this season.

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/...cial_events.jsp

Although I'm not much of a drinker, I do like the lavender triangle cocktail symbol.

I wonder if I can afford a ticket to the gay day game in August.

[ May 03, 2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: MPetrelis ]

Now what about the 49ers? I've searched with Google for links to anything about a gay day with our football team and couldn't find a thing. Is it just the Giants that host gay day events, but not our 49ers?

I sure would like both teams to send reps to the SF gay pride parade and show some support for gay equality, when the teams aren't looking to make a buck.

1) I think teams are responding to the community's request for "gay days" (ie. they are not being pro-active), but are also weighing the pros and cons of additional ticket sales vs. flack from the public for 'supporting' the community. Most gay day events have been organized by community groups anyways, so the team's are just selling group tickets (which is a plus to them). Some, like the Blue Jays and Giants, seem to be organizing the events on their own--but both these teams are in more gay-friendly environments. More info on this can be found on the Gay Days at the Ballpark thread. *

2) Seeing as there are no openly gay athletes in the major pro team sports, there's no reason not to support any team. Obviously, how a team handles Rocker-esque characters are important, but I think team loyalty ultimately is based on the team, not on individual players.

3) I don't think being a sports fan has anything to do with being gay. And, in a way, it's something that brings people together (gay-straight, male-female, young-old, etc.), rather than differentiates them. That said, if one attended a "gay day" or gay sports event, that can bring out your pride of being gay and a fan.

4) I can definitely remember certain sports moments, like watching the Jays win the 1993 World Series in the bar at Houlihan's Restaurant on Bourbon St. in New Orleans. The crowd watching the game were nominally Phillies fans (because they were the American team), but after Joe Carter homered off Mitch Williams to win the game, there was brief silence, then everyone started chanting "Whomp--there it is! Whomp--there it is!" which they chant at New Orleans Saints games. And I remember the final play when the Jays won the 1992 World Series (I was watching at home with the family): Otis Nixon dropped down a bunt, it was fielded by Mike Timlin, who tossed the ball to Joe Carter (who was playing first, as John Olerud had been lifted for a pinch runner previously in the game) for the final out. And I remember attending Raptors playoff games a few years ago and how excited the fans were. And I remember watching Canada win the World Cup of Hockey last year (with JiP). Etc., etc....

*To further this topic: I think baseball has been a more popular choice for gay days because of a number of factors: availability of tickets (there are more games and more available seats; NFL, for example, is usually sold out, and NBA and NHL are in smaller arenas); lower cost of tickets; outdoor, summer, daytime, weekday sport; baseball is popular and well-known to most people; baseball is played by a lot of people in the community (there are more gay softball leagues than football, basketball or hockey).

Both the NBA's Philadelphia 76ers and the Boston Celtics hosted gay & lesbian groups this past season.

[ May 03, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

1) It seems to me that it's a combination of baseball having the infrastructure in place of welcoming and sponsering groups at games ("welcome to Cub Scouts of the Conejo Valley") as the gay dollar became an identifiable, viable force in the marketplace making us a somewhat desired audience to target coupled with gay baseball fans willing to do the work to organize/coordinate the events. Many of these fans came from the already-thriving gay softball leagues. Though the LA Kings and Mighty Ducks of Anaheim have yet to have "gay nights" at their games, in the past few years there's been an LA Kings presence at LA's gay pride festival, as the team looks for new ticket buyers. The Ducks have done the same in Orange County. This public reaching out to the gay market is another way a team & our community can foster the ties necessary for "gay nights" to take place.

2) How could there be "hesitancy among any of you in supporting a pro team in a league that has no openly gay player..."? If we were waiting for an openly gay player before becoming fans, we wouldn't yet be fans. The occoasional moronic, close-minded comment by particular athletes does not detract from the enjoyment of the game. This is especially so if the attitude of the team and parent organization is, in the terminology of the day, gay-friendly.

3) I'm not sure how being a "gay fan" is different from being a "straight fan," or if there is any difference at all. Being a fan of any sport is already a self-defining process that allows an instant connection with others with whom one may not have any other connection. Go to any game; people with seemingly nothing in common are cheering & booing together, without questioning one another's life away from the game.

4) As a native Angeleno, I follow the LA teams more than any others. As for players, I'm more impressed by those who live the cliche "there's no I in team" than by those who seem to always seek the spotlight--no matter how great their skills. Aditionally, consistency over time is a big draw, both in athletes who participate in team sports and those who participate in individual sports such as golf, track, and tennis.

~Adam

1. It's the Community Of Money they respond to. Some have a longer-term view of this than others, i.e. to promote their diversity is better for their bottom-[political]-line long-run than not, besides the actual $$ involved. And at a certain point--where would they draw the line in terms of groups to allow/promote and those they wouldn't?

With more and more teams reaching out/dependant on the local community to "pitch in" to the tune of million$ to subsidize their stadiums and luxury boxes, a broad base of support is important. So what stops them from doing more active solicitation of gay groups is the presumed belief that they would offend more than they would gain. So they sit on their hands. Especially if they already sell out [NFL] or have a fan base that is perceived as being--shall we say--less tolerant.

When politicians, who are elected to represent all of us, take the lead in repressing some of us--can we really expect those that are motivated solely by profit to be more progressive?

2. It does gnaw at me that no team has an openly gay player, and that the leagues do nothing to prepare for the eventuality. There's more time spent on planning for Hall Of Fame busts of bygones than there is on the very real face of bigotry in their leagues.

There is now a nearly standard-issue PR response to RockerComments. So a press release is put out, the offending athlete tiptoes out on the plank to read a half-apology, and everyone talks about moving on. Rinse, repeat.

3. This whole site is about being a gay sports fan. But as for identifying at a sporting even, I'm very reluctant to do that. Danger seems to pervade such events, with alcohol fueled-machismo hanging thick in the air. With athletic events so often based on Proving Something, it's not a stretch to imagine fans--not to mention players--wanting to make sure they did if you identified yourself as gay.

Although I understand the desire--I don't buy the argument that there is no such thing as a gay or straight fan. Yeah--we're all god's children...let's get in a circle and sing Kum-Ba-Ya! Guys are constantly talking about women when they're at sporting events: how hot the cheerleaders are, the occasional hot girl in the vicinity, who they left at home, who they work with...it's nearly endless. And yet we--the gay fans--are supposed to say nothing like that, lest we reveal our differences??!

To me that says that we're 2nd class fans: our seats, while bought at the same price, are in fact worth less. We have less freedom to be ourselves, and that pisses me off.

There are always going to be exceptions: season ticket holders, who get to know each other, and come to accept the gay fan. But generally, I think sporting events are scary places to be an out gay man, and I wish that wasn't so.

4. Growing up in Michigan, I was a Lions fan. I'd go to the neighbors and watch them grind out the ground game, but I have to admit that looking back on it I thought their uniforms were pretty cool! I then moved on to the Orange-Crush Broncos, despite their usual demise in the playoffs, going to far as to make a special Orange Crush punch for their Super Bowl appearance.

As a kid, I saw the Vikings play the Broncos at a Mile-High preseason game when visiting Denver. I use the term "saw" loosely, because the combination of being high up in the cheap seats, with waves of smoke wafting up from below watered my eyes to the point where it was hard to tell the Purple from the Orange!

Lately, partly due to living in LA, and partly because I'm a gay--it's more about following individual players than it is teams. With players changing teams as often as they do their proverbial underwear , it doesn't tend to engender much loyalty. So I pick the players I like, and follow them [thanks to the Sunday Ticket on the dish] anywhere they go. Especially if it's the diligent clipboard holder, pacing the sideline next to the coach!

[ May 04, 2005, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Brent ]

I believe that it is a combination of responding to the community and seeing an economic opportunity. Just from observation (since I have never lived in San Francisco or Philadelphia), I do notice that those cities seem to go out of their way more to embrace its gay population more than say, a Phoenix or Atlanta. Maybe there is more of a realization in certain cities that they should reach out more to the gay community, in general (in addition to sports fans in the gay community). I have lived in areas, including New York, Houston, Baltimore, and Washington, DC, that have appeared to have not made any attempts at all to attract gay people. However, I am aware that the Mets now host a "gay day". However, the Yankees do not. Most likely, that is probably because the Yankees don't really have promotion days for anyone, and they have a very conservative owner. Also, with 2-3 million people projected to enter Yankee Stadium gates each year, they don't need to financially, either. The same thing probably goes for the Orioles. Most NFL and NBA teams appear not to care at all to attract anyone gay. I really feel that the NHL and MLS are the two leagues that are missing the boat. These two languishing leagues are probably not even aware that they have a gay fan base. The Washington Capitals have made it quite clear that they are in financial trouble (along with most of the NHL). However, I have yet to see any attempt made by the organization to appeal to gay community of Washington, DC. The same thing goes for DC United in the MLS.


Is there any hesitancy among any of you in supporting a pro team in a league that has no openly gay players and still has the occasional player make Rockeresque comments? Why or why not?

When another athlete has made a homophobic remark, I am at least relieved when I find that he is NOT on one of my favorite teams. If the player was on one of my teams, it wouldn't stop me from liking my team, but I would probably feel lukewarm (at best) about supporting that player. If it is a Latino player from a much smaller country, I tend to blame the environment from which he comes (and hope that he is educated by the team in the future). There should be no excuses for North American and European players that are more exposed to gay communities. I belive that all players in all professional leagues should be required to take cultural sensitivity training before they ever even begin to play. I had to take it at my job, why shouldn't they?

Is it important to identify yourself as a Gay Fan? Why? Or is it apples and oranges? (footballs and hockey pucks, whatever bad analogy you can think of.)

Outside of OutSports, I do tend to feel like a minority in the sports world because I am gay, and I feel like a minority in the gay world because I am a sports fan. I don't feel the need to identify myself as a gay sports fan. But, if I need to be identified as one in order to bring to light the fact that gay sports fans actually exist, then so be it. For what it's worth, I am the biggest sports fan of any gay or straight person with whom I interact on a daily basis (outside of OutSports).
Regarding sporting events, it can be tough at times to keep your head when idiots yell homophobic statements. I was at the MCI Center a few years ago, and an obnoxious Washington Capitals fan was calling the New York Rangers "faggots". Wearing a Rangers sweater, I just turned around and glared at him. Then, I later smiled at him because the Rangers won the game in overtime. Just recently I was at Camden Yards with my boyfriend. The Orioles were hosting the Yankees. One loudmouth kept yelling "A-Rod sucks Jeter". Ironically, my boyfriend was wearing an Alex Rodriguez jersey and I was wearing a Derek Jeter one. I think I will leave the analogy there...

And lastly, tell me your fan stories. Which teams and players do you love? Why?

Well, I live and breathe for the New York Yankees. In fact, I just recently discussed my absolute passion for the them in a recent post on the Yankees thread. Being originally from New York, I suffer following the Knicks and Rangers, too. I probably just liked them because they were the first teams that I knew (and they my dad always had their games on television). I am not a huge fan of the NFL, but I do love the Dolphins (we took a lot of trips to South Florida to visit the grandparents when I was a kid). Growing up, my favorite players were pretty typical of the teams I followed: Don Mattingly, Patrick Ewing, Mark Messier, Brian Leetch, Dan Marino (hard-working guys). You don't really see as many players like that anymore. I suppose Derek Jeter is currently my favorite player. Regarding soccer, I started liking DC United because I moved to the DC area when the MLS was just beginning. I went to Texas A&M, one of the most conservative universities in the country. I really have to separate my love of my university from my university's politics. I remember being at an Aggie football game with a good friend of mine when I was a student. The gubernatorial contest between very conservative Republican Clayton Williams (an A&M alumnist that had given millions to the university) and very liberal Democrat Ann Richards (whom I supported) was going on at the time. They were having a debate on campus and they announced it during the game. When they announced Williams' name, the crowd roared in furious support, and when they announced Richards' name, the crowd hissed like crazy. My friend and I laughed because it looked like we were these two tiny people (in a crowd of about 75,000) that were cheering for Ann Richards. It was at that time that I fully realized that I was probably going to be in the in the minority at sports events for one reason or another for the rest of my life.

[ May 04, 2005, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Cattledog ]

Some sports teams - The SF Giants, the Phillies, etc. - have "Gay Days." Is this because they are responding to the community or because they see an economic opportunity? Both? Why do you think that some sports - i.e football, hockey - haven't had similar events? (If they have, please correct me.)

I think it is a combo of both. Many of these gay day events are in cities with a strong gay population, and where the political climate is friendly. I think the economic aspect is that the clubs need seats to fill, tickets to sell. On that point that is why you've seen these gay events happen in baseball more than others. As an MLB franchise, you have 81 dates to sell tickets in venues that seat 40-50K fans, as compared to the NBA/NHL which have 41 dates for 15-20K fans. The NFL is in the highest demand as far as tickets go, with many venues not offering even so much as single game ticket sales. So there is where it is economically least feasible.

Is there any hesitancy among any of you in supporting a pro team in a league that has no openly gay players and still has the occasional player make Rockeresque comments? Why or why not?

No, you have to believe that in the climate of today's pro sports society that athletes with Rockeresque tendencies are in every clubhouse to some extent. So it is all a wash in the end.
However if someone was an openly gay athlete playing a major team sport or is gay supportive, I do tend to pay attention to his onfield performance a bit more closely

Is it important to identify yourself as a Gay Fan? Why? Or is it apples and oranges? (footballs and hockey pucks, whatever bad analogy you can think of.)

No, I'm a sports fan first. Quite simply.

And lastly, tell me your fan stories. Which teams and players do you love? Why?

Being in Buffalo, I am a fan of our pro sports clubs obviously.

I can say that I am one of the few(if any out there) who attended Game 6 of the '99 Stanley Cup Finals(NO GOAL) AND Bills/Titans AFC Wild Card game 6 months later(Music City Miracle).

I do travel extensively to attend sports events across the continent. I've been to all 30 MLB Parks(actually, that won't be true until I hit RFK next weekend)....and yes, I've been to the Shark Tank not once but twice as well as all Bay Area venues....heck honestly- I've been to just about every major pro sports venue in North America! Zillions of roadtrip/travel stories I could tell you. Ottawa, Portland, OR and Portland, ME, North Dakota, Hawaii.....blah, blah, blah.

Favorite players.... hoops is my favorite sport. grew up a St. John's fan so Chris Mullin and Mark Jackson amongst others were favorite players. Today, Dirk Nowitzki is the player I enjoy watching the most. His ability to do what he does on the floor for someone his height is amazing....that fallaway 17 footer of his is just unstoppable!

Shameless and useless personal plug - I won the OutSports NCAA pool this year, but don't let that delude you into thinking I know what the heck I'm talking about on that .

Don't know if I'm too late for this but here goes:

Some sports teams - The SF Giants, the Phillies, etc. - have "Gay Days." Is this because they are responding to the community or because they see an economic opportunity? Both?

BOTH.

Why do you think that some sports - i.e football, hockey - haven't had similar events? (If they have, please correct me.)

THEY DO NOT WISH TO ANNOY HOMOPHOBIC CUSTOMERS.

Is there any hesitancy among any of you in supporting a pro team in a league that has no openly gay players and still has the occasional player make Rockeresque comments?

YES.

Why or why not?

BECAUSE I LOSE ENTHUSIASM FOR THEM. TO SUPPORT THEM WOULD BE DISHONEST.

Is it important to identify yourself as a Gay Fan?

NOT TO ME, BUT PERHAPS TO EDUCATE OTHERS.

Why?

I'M NOT THAT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER FANS, AND I WOULD LIKE THEM TO KNOW THAT.

Or is it apples and oranges? (footballs and hockey pucks, whatever bad analogy you can think of.)

SEE ABOVE.

And lastly, tell me your fan stories. Which teams and players do you love? Why?

THOSE TEAMS AND PLAYERS WHO BLIP MY GAYDAR. FOR ME THAT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN I THINK THEY ARE, OR MIGHT BE GAY - THOUGH SINGLE GUYS ARE MORE APPEALING - BUT THAT THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE, FUN TO WATCH AND MAKE ME AS A GAY MAN FEEL WELCOME, OR AT LEAST NOT THREATENED.

Thank you so much for your help and thanks Jim for introducing me.