[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
I do think you're always funny though, in that poorly dressed, waaaaay downtown drag queen sort of way.

---

"Waaaaay downtown"? Would that be Wall Street, the South Street Seaport or Battery Park? I see plenty of poorly dressed queens in business drag there on a regular basis. But they all look like they could use a good enema, not very funny.

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
I was the "fool" who believes this coming out story is somewhat anti-climatic due to the timing.

---

I meant "fool" in the context of "fish-eyed fool" from my Aunt Esther/LaWanda Page routine... you old heathen!

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
And while it adds favorably to the dialogue, I doubt his story of not playing up to his potential and waiting until so many years later will save many teenagers.

---

I have to disagree... do you talk to many children/teenagers? Esera might not feel that he lived up to his own expectations or performed his personal best, but for 99.999993% of the population that would never even be good or fortunate enough to even play one down of professional football, he made it to the freakin' Promised Land! Most people who are well-accomplished are, from the outside, viewed that way, no matter what they feel their failures or unreached potential is. I know plenty of kids who would listen to him just based on where he has been.

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
Of course, I hope that it does, but the whole point of this ongoing discussion about athletes coming out is strongly fueled by the awareness that it'll take a major athlete still somewhere near his/her prime to have the kind of impact that might be culture-changing. I applaud this guy for coming out nationally but we could always use someone actually willing to take a risk a little earlier in their career. Now that would benefit many young lives.

---

Yeah, and we could also use a celebrated Green Beret or Navy Seal coming out at the height of his military career, or a US Senator in the middle of his term. Or what if, say, Magic Johnson would have said something like "based on my history, there's a serious probability that I could've contracted HIV from having sex with a man"? (That would have done wonders for breaking stereotypes, while admittedly, been an epidemologist's nightmare.)

If everytime someone publicly comes out, we're disappointed that it's not someone larger than life (or someone that we would have preferred it to be), that belittles the process and the act of courage. This story tells us (and others who might be thinking of making statments to their loved ones or just coming to terms with their own sexuality) that there may be a rough road ahead, that it's not all butterscotch candy and roses, but the coming out process can be far better than the nightmare that they imagine it to be. And that there are accomplished non-stereotypical gay people that they admire who have been through hell and don't want them to suffer like that. That gay men can find loving partners and raise kids in loving environments and live their lives productively in peace. What other messages for young folks does there need to be? Does he need to be some kind of Jesus?

YellaDog, the only amendment I would propose to your wise (and readable) post(s) would be to mention the fact that the bitching of some bitter old queen, complaining that the timing of a coming out announcement was not to her liking, might ... just might ... contribute to the reluctance of high profile athletes to come out and to embrace a gay community that many (rightfully) feel estranged from.

As far as lives saved, as long as Esera Tuaolo saved his own, I don't think we need to expect any more of him.

PS: Tuaolo is HOT HOT HOT.

YellaDawg, I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with your comments regarding ethnocentrism, but I think they're thought-provoking, and therefore quite welcome.

I applaud Tuaolo for coming out. It doesn't matter to me whether he is or was a superstar. We all come to terms with our queerness in different ways and at different speeds. Personally, I find it terribly disappointing when a gay man takes another to task for not coming out in a manner or at a speed that they've decided is appropriate. I think it makes the process more difficult, less rewarding, and more intimidating, for those still struggling with themselves.

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
It's also possible that some players have experienced what many of us have experienced which is being cruised by some compulsively aggressive ugly ass gay guy in a shower or a locker room. Where they look you up and down in that intrustive, unwelcome and often disgusting way - this is what women experience all the time. If it feels wrong to a gay guy, imagine how it feels for a straight guy. Otherwise, it seems that these athletes are a bit irrational about the showering thing.

---

Thank you for this point, bryan d. I hadn't thought of it in that light, and perhaps I should give straight guys a bit of slack.

That said, it's the lone gay guy in the shower that has more to fear than the two dozen straight guys. After all, it's gay people that get bashed in this world, not straight people.

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
It's also possible that some players have experienced... being cruised by some compulsively aggressive ugly ass gay guy in a shower or a locker room. Where they look you up and down in that intrustive, unwelcome and often disgusting way - this is what women experience all the time. If it feels wrong to a gay guy, imagine how it feels for a straight guy.

---

Wha...?? You're justifying homophobic terror because "Ma, he won't stop looking at me!!" How very four-year-old.

And it's just frightening how every shower and locker room is just crawling with "ugly ass gay guys" who "look you up and down in that intrustive, unwelcome and often disgusting way." Thank you. Now I totally understand why Jeremy Shockey wouldn't, you know, stand for it. Ugly Ass Troll Panic. We should all be ashamed.

As I go bopping along through life I have a tendancy to forget how prude the world really is. All this talk about objectifying of men, and the whole shower room romance things just makes me laugh. People are so worried about someone taking a peek at their pee pee's. Bwahaaaaa!

[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
Quite appropriate that you would speak in a Ronald Reagan voice. I actually would expect that of you.

---

And once again, your expectations would prove to be off-target, seeing as how I despise Ronald Reagan and his entire presidency.

Back to Tuaolo. I think it's great that he's not a superstar, has a partner, is pursuing another career and has kids.

He's coming out at a good time with everyone very much concentrating on other things, gays having made a lot of progress, but very much in need of a figure like him to slowly bring the issues we still need addressed back to the publics attention in the most positive way.

I still think this is groundbreaking. The full effect may take a while to sink in, but that's often the way of important events.

I'd love to see him and his family on a major magazine cover some day.

On the whole shower issue - I have often thought that the dislike str8 men have to being checked out by gay men is caused by their not wanting to be perceived as gay. That is, if a gay man is checking you out, then he must think you're gay as well. It is the same motivation that causes str8 men to refuse to acknowledge when a guy is good-looking (the "I wouldn't know" cop out). I still think it derives from their own, conscious or unconscious, homosexual desires. I know I hated it when gay guys would flirt with me when I was in the closet - the constant fear of being inadvertantly outed because a gay guy had good gaydar was a primary reason for me shunning gay people during those years.

Incidentally, I think that the same motivation may be behind some of the commentary about Jay Croft's column, and whether it was racist or ethnocentric. No one wants to be accused of something they dislike, whether it is a str8 man being seen as gay, or a white man being perceived as racist. So, when someone who is not white notes a possibility of ethnocentrism in a white man's column, there is a natural inclination for other white guys to come to his defense. No that there's anything wrong with that, mind you.

[quote]Originally posted by redsoxbreath:


Wha...?? You're justifying homophobic terror because "Ma, he won't stop looking at me!!" How very four-year-old.

---

I don't think it's a justification of the behavior, but it's something valid you have to look at when examining the behavior of any guy -- straight, questioning, even gay. Keep in mind -- this isn't something many of these boys think about every day -- because, being straight, they've had no reason to do so -- so they're approach to the subject isn't going to be as nuanced as those that have been dealing with the issues since adolescence or before.

It reminds me of Hemingway's discussion with Gertrude Stein in A Moveable Feast when he's explaining his own homophobia. He eventually admits holding these prejudices because he knows male homosexual "culture" only from its seediest underside. When you've only been exposed to the nastiness, you're going to assume the worst. Most guys getting unwelcomed cruising in a locker room aren't going to think, "Isn't it sad how this guy is expressing his desire in this pathetic way? I should politely tolerate it because society has given him the short stick"; they're going to think some variation on "Stop doing that." If that's the only interaction with gay guys they know -- or perhaps the only interaction they've ever been asked to examine because that's how the hypothetical situation has always been phrased -- then it's no wonder that they'd respond with ignorance. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people out there in this Will & Grace world who are still are uneducated, unaware or uninformed about gay guys.

Like I said, this doesn't excuse or justify behavior. But there are different levels of bigotry and there's different levels of ignorance. The responsibility of responding to each situation as appropriate unfortunately falls to those of us who wish to make real change in attitudes.

P.S. To clarify above, in my opinion, locker room cruising isn't pathetic by definition -- but unwelcome one-way cruising is.

I "Googled" Esera Tuaolo's name to see what the coverage has been so far, and was struck by something very interesting - Although most of the news outlets relied on the same source story (don't know if it was AP or HBO or some other org. that put it out), there was an interesting trend of many outlets stating that Tuaolo was "admitting" or "revealing" he was gay, versus the few that used "announces" his orientation. It may be reading too much, but there is a clear bias towards seeing homosexuality still as a negative, something that is automatically a secret. I realize this shouldn't come as a shock, but it was interesting to see it revealed in that subtle way.

Also, I was reading the Advocate's 35th anniversary issue, and there was a piece by Barney Frank talking about his coming out. He noted that most people he initially spoke to about it said something along the lines of "Don't do it. I don't have a problem with it, but everyone else will." In the responses from players that are in the articles I perused, there is definately that theme. There are few Jeremy Shockley's talking about their own discomfort, and a lot of Sterling Sharpe's talking about everyone else's discomfort.

Jim Rome has some amusing quips in his column on the issue.

[quote]It’s so absurd, but we know how it would go down. The first response from athletes will probably be, “If a teammate of mine is gay, I’d want to know so I could keep an eye on him”. Yeah, roving bands of aggressive homosexuals that attack without notice are a menace and should be kept tabs on. It’s an irrational response and an unrealistic view of the world.

If the gay teammate didn’t approach you while he concealed his homosexual predisposition, why would he approach you after he came out? His coming out is not an entrée into dating teammates.

---

I can always count on Charlie for a ridiculous response. No one, including myself, has deemed this player's coming out as inappropriate or wrong in any way. I'm glad that you're so attracted to Mr. Tuaolo and I'm sure that doesn't influence your opinions on this subject at all...

Yelladog - there's lots of funny people on wall street, aren't there?

Again, before my opinions get further distorted by CITT - I'm glad this guy's finally came out after being retired from football for a few years; that's great! He mentioned that he's just recently grown comfortable with his sexuality which is obviously because he lived a closeted life for so long. I'm glad that he's quickly comfortable enough to have a partner and become a parent - that's pretty fast and awesome. He's a wonderful example of someone living a "normal" gay life after years of pretending to be someone he's not.

I'll take this opportunity to applaud all the guys and girls out there who are obviously gay, who walk out their door everyday in their normal lives and face resistance and flak just for being gay. I applaud these people who don't have the security of being 300 lbs and able to "kick ass," or of being a former football player, or of spending years carefully calculating when it'll be safe to come out. I applaud all the gay people in all towns across America who've always dealt with the difficulties of being out. I consider them to be the real heroes.

Those of you who've implied that it's ridiculous for a str8 guy to feel uncomfortable or offended by some guy cruising them in a locker room - well, you're either in denial or too busy cruising locker rooms to get it. I've stated that I think it's irrational for a professional athlete to worry about showering with a gay teammate. But, I've seen enough lascivious cruising in locker rooms to know how incredibly unwelcome that behavior is to me, much less a str8 guy. But, some overly aggressive guys just enjoy making str8 guys uncomfortable...and I say, have some restraint and stop perpetuating stereotypes.

Tuaolo is absolutely beautiful - nice-looking man. I wish him the best.

[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:


I think it's unfortunate that he implies that Tualo is not the "handsome" football star that some expected.

---

That's not the most attractive picture of him. I like the one on the homepage much better.

The two-day-ole beard makes him look too scruff and mean. Great for NFL, but not for his best personal pic.

The NFL is long overdue for some serious sensitivity training on gays in sports and in general - endorsed from the top.

And Yelladog - I reread your most recent posting and I must say I do agree with you to a certain extent...Every coming out story has inspiration within it and no, we don't need anyone to be jesus. I think that there's just been so much buildup and anticipation here on outsports of someone nationally known to come out and support the cause.

Every step helps including Mr. Tuaolo's...

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
some overly aggressive guys just enjoy making str8 guys uncomfortable...and I say, have some restraint and stop perpetuating stereotypes.

---

So this hypothetical straight guy's inability to say "Excuse me, your attention is bothering me, and if you don't stop I'll report you to management," puts the onus on us gay guys to behave ourselves so as not to reflect badly on our "race". Where do you draw the line between an acceptable glance and a threatening, depraved stare? Is it the drool that makes the difference? Looks like we'll need workshops.

Anyway, something I'm finding especially annoying about these conversations and interviews is the constant, evasive use of the passive conditional. Let's take Sterling Sharpe's comment "He would have been eaten alive and he would have been hated for it." What he doesn't want to say is "I would eat him alive and I'd hate him for it." And Darren Sharper, quoted by Frank Schwab: "Guys wouldn't... still be playing football now because we would look upon them differently. We would ridicule them so much." Let's push them on it, to the point of acknowledging personal responsibility in the matter. That's the necessary first step to dealing with the real issues.

The NFL needs to be pushed as well. According to Robert Lipsyte, "An N.F.L. spokesman characterized Sharpe's message as 'unfortunate and irresponsible,' and went on to declare the N.F.L. a 'meritocracy' based on 'job performance'. An individual's sexual orientation is entirely irrelevant." Well, we don't believe you, so prove it. Does the business side have a non-discriminiation clause propecting its LGBT employees? If not, why not? Work with the owners to state a policy and implement a program, players included. If you refuse, you'll get publicity that you really don't want.

Am I nuts? Isn't that the press' job? Where's Candace Gingrich?!

<ok, chilling out>

http://www.outsports.com/nfl/20021027esera...splayerreax.htm

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

Apropos the previous post, CPT_Doom wrote in another thread,

[quote]Just a note on ESPN's NFL Countdown show this past week... Sharpe reiterated his comments about how other teammates would likely react, but added (at least I believe it was Sharpe) that the league, which released a "it's a non-issue" statement, really hasn't addressed the issue of gays in the league, and likely would have to in the very near future, with a current player rather than a retired one.

---

Very interesting...

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

[quote]

---

So this hypothetical straight guy's inability to say "Excuse me, your attention is bothering me, and if you don't stop I'll report you to management," puts the onus on us gay guys to behave ourselves so as not to reflect badly on our "race". Where do you draw the line between an acceptable glance and a threatening, depraved stare? Is it the drool that makes the difference? Looks like we'll need workshops. [quote]

---

Wow, redsox, a little slow tonight?
If you want to argue for your right to cruise however inappropriately, be my guest. And if you don't know the difference between an acceptable glance and a threatening, depraved stare - well, then i guess you've got a problem...

I'm glad also, redsox, that you're going to storm the entire NFL with horrible publicity if they don't draft a non-discrimination clause towards homosexuals. A raging queen threatening the NFL with punitive intentions is a bit drama-heavy and intelligence-light. Calm down. Other people have opinions and feelings, too.

[quote]Originally posted by redsoxbreath:
Apropos the previous post, CPT_Doom wrote in another thread,



Very interesting...

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

---

I think he's just guessing rather than hinting at some insider info. You might check his predictions on football wins/losses to see how relevant his guessing is.

The fact that Tuaolo is in a stable relationship and has adopted kids is "good public relations" for all of us gay people all over America. He couldn't have come out at a more better time. Kudos to Tuaolo, and best wishes!

[quote]Originally posted by redsoxbreath:

So this hypothetical straight guy's inability to say "Excuse me, your attention is bothering me, and if you don't stop I'll report you to management," puts the onus on us gay guys to behave ourselves so as not to reflect badly on our "race". Where do you draw the line between an acceptable glance and a threatening, depraved stare?

---

Put WOMEN in that sentence and think about sexual harassment - " So this woman's inability to say " Excuse me etc" puts the onus on us guys to behave ourselves...etc----- SEE- it will be the same - you have a responsibility to maintain a non-harassment workplace which is professional and as it should be.

[quote]Originally posted by redsoxbreath:


Wha...?? You're justifying homophobic terror because "Ma, he won't stop looking at me!!" How very four-year-old.

And it's just frightening how every shower and locker room is just crawling with "ugly ass gay guys" who "look you up and down in that intrustive, unwelcome and often disgusting way." Thank you. Now I totally understand why Jeremy Shockey wouldn't, you know, stand for it. Ugly Ass Troll Panic. We should all be ashamed.

---

i agree w/bryan on this one. it is extremely annoying/uncomfortable when some gross guy won't let you shower in peace.

i think some of us forget that the purpose of the showers is to clean oneself after a workout...

and i hate to say it, but based on redsoxbreath's words and reaction, i'd say bryan hit a sore spot here.

Oh my God! You people must just be Saints! I would feel extremely DIRTY compaired to you saintly, modest, uninterested, people! For god sakes. So someone looks at you. Who the heck cares. Get over it. And to me, the locker room is a place to CLEAN myself, but it is also a place to relax in the hottub, or the steam room, and yes, I admit it, a place to maybe take a tinny peek at some little hottie that I saw upstairs. Now because I'm 6'1" 190lbs and in half way decent shape, and 25 years old, now am I allowed to look at these guys, because I'm not an old ugly troll? I'm a little shakey on the rules of engagement in the shower room. Am I allowed to look at old fat men? Or will they be offended because I'm looking at them? Will they be offended because I'm not looking at them? Should I be offended if someone happens to notice how I look? I'm getting confused? Should I be placing Woman in any of these comments so that the sexual harasment issues are easier to understand? Hell no! Women arn't allowed in MENS locker rooms guys, hello! We are a Gender, and that is how society has sepparated out the changing rooms in any location in the world just about, and you know what, people are just going to have to get used to being looked at. It's a part of life, I have been being looked at, in the locker room from the time I started going to the gym. Sometimes they are good looks, and sometimes they are bad looks, but I don't really care.

I am so tired of people whining about this STUPID topic and having some prude person try to force their Moral ideology about the acceptableness of nudity and all the rules associated with participation in what they consider a privilage situation, when in fact, it is a god given right, when you join a club, to go into a locker room.

You either shower at the gym, and accept the climate there, or you don't. Don't any of you ever try to tell me that I'm a perv, or anything else, simply because I don't follow your little set of rules that you have developed in your minds. My god! How judgemental can you all be?

Ok, I'll step off my Big Gay Soap Box now. I'm feeling very fiesty today.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: MSUBobcat ]

[quote] Put WOMEN in that sentence and think about sexual harassment - " So this woman's inability to say " Excuse me etc" puts the onus on us guys to behave ourselves...etc----- SEE- it will be the same - you have a responsibility to maintain a non-harassment workplace which is professional and as it should be.

---

Clearly harassment should never be tolerated, but I highly doubt any gay professional player, out or not, would come on to another player so aggressively that it could ever be considered harassment. For a truly homophobic player, just being in the same locker room with an out player, with the possibility of being looked at, seems to be enough to spark their fears/anxieties. That is a long way from harassment.

To be honest, you're absolutely right that there are boundaries of civil behavior that should not be crossed, regardless of gender or sexuality. I argued my point poorly; my objection is to the idea that (1) a heavy breather's behavior reflects on "all" gay men -- Isn't it enough that it's offensive in and of itself? -- and (2) the boundary is somehow different if a "straight" man is the object of admiration -- Isn't lascivious behavior equally offensive to a gay guy?

Faydman, well said. I think my sore spot is the fact that I do feel that responsibility and restraint, for example at my very mixed gym. Much as I might want to openly, non-threateningly admire an attractive guy, I catch myself at the first glance because I don't want to be seen as crossing that boundary. I avert my eyes, and feel a twinge of shame. That's what I resent.

BTW, how did the breather get into the NFL locker room?

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

Redsoxbreath, I hear what you're saying, but why do you feel any "shame"? You're homosexual or bisexual, right? You're attracted to men, right? Men admire women's beauty, women admire men's beauty, men look at men, women look at women, transgender people...anyways, the admiration of human beauty and attractiveness goes back to our very origins, and is perfectly okay. It's okay.

There is nothing, NOT A THING, shameful about looking at a person who is attractive. You're not ogling the man, you're not raping him, you're just looking. That is your right. As Essex Hemphill wrote, "Do not feel shame for how I live." Or how we look, or love, or live--we shouldn't feel it, and no one else should either.

i don't think anyone is denying a peek here and there...

but I think we have all encountered the guy (usually an old troll, but not always) who leers, cruises, plays with himself, etc. I think that is what straight people dislike...but you know what, so do I.

the key here is that I doubt if any gay pro athlete would do that. it's just too risky. if the straight players would realize that, then they might have less of an issue...

Right, Fantomas and dupontred, that's my point. Our mouth-breather should feel shame about imposing his unwanted attention on others. But the demand to be circumspect about our sexuality is so deeply internalized that even showing a healthy, respectful admiration of beauty often feels shameful as well.

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: m1 ]

[quote] originally posted by bryan d

---

It's also possible that some players have experienced what many of us have experienced which is being cruised by some compulsively aggressive ugly ass gay guy in a shower or a locker room. Where they look you up and down in that intrusive, unwelcome and often disgusting way - this is what women experience all the time. If it feels wrong to a gay guy, imagine how it feels for a straight guy. Otherwise, it seems that these athletes are a bit irrational about the showering thing. [quote]

---

That's my original quote, guys. I didn't lecture any of you about your sexuality nor imply that anyone was "dirty." I'd suggest everyone take a closer look at what their own reaction reveals about themselves especially you, redsox, whose tirades have taken this a whole other direction.

My point was that perhaps some athletes had already experienced an unwelcome "cruise" and were basing their underinformed views on this one bad experience. Some homophobic adults also have sexual abuse at the hands of an older male in their background which makes them hyper sensitive as well. In no way, do I excuse people like Shockey's ignorance...my comments suggested reasons for these guys' attitudes. Please read the quote completely before going off.

I would never suggest anyone avert their eyes from an attractive sight. I do think there's appropriate and inappropriate times for cruising and that's my opinion. I'm allowed it. Do I cringe when I see some guy being extra pushy towards someone totally uninterested and in a totally inappropriate place, sure I do. I don't like my space invaded; I presume they don't either.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]

Sorry for the miss understanding.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: MSUBobcat ]

Don't put words in my mouth, MSU - I didn't specify in any way who I like to look at - And this thread isn't about public nudity...we're discussing what's appropriate or not, and perhaps this is where you have a problem.

Sounds to me like your buttons have been pushed?

My only issue is I highly doubt any (or at least very few) professional player has had the experience of being "checked out" by some guy and is basing their dislike of having a gay teammate on that experience. One thing I noticed when I was still closeted and around str8 guys almost all the time is that they are relatively clueless when they're being noticed (not cruised, mind you, but noticed). I don't know if a guy would be more likely to pick up on that in a locker room or not, but I am willing to bet that any gay player who is able to hide their sexuality and play at the pro level would have learned either to 1) not notice anyone or 2) notice without drawing attention to themselves.

This whole "we have to shower together" line just seems to me to be about str8 guys not wanting to face their own feelings about homosexuality, and just don't want to think about it. I have heard and read (probably here on this site) that locker rooms/sports teams are one of the few places where men can be friends and close without anyone thinking they're gay. By introducing homosexuality into that picture, you are shaking up that image. Since str8 guys are taught that gay guys are sexual predators, they likely don't think they could ever relate to a gay guy on the same level as friends again.

I think you're right on about that part...

I agree, well said CPT_Doom.

bryan d., what set me off was another part, "Some overly aggressive guys just enjoy making str8 guys uncomfortable...and I say, have some restraint and stop perpetuating stereotypes."

The implication here is that each of us "gay guys" is responsible for making sure that "straight guys" don't think we're all like that... Isn't that what "perpetuating stereotypes" means? Well in fact there are sleazy gay guys, but that doesn't mean that you're one. You're as repulsed as any straight guy is, so why worry about how he feels toward you as a regular, respectful gay guy? You're denigrating yourself by identifying with Sleazo over there. Take pride in yourself.

For me, that's the kernel. My apologies for ranting, obviously I have a big hotbutton about not assuming responsiblity for other people's behavior, or other people's perceptions of anyone but myself. I yam who I yam, and that's all I yever can be. (Plus I was pissed off that you caught me ganging up on a new member the other night. You were 100% right, but I didn't want you the get the impression that all gay guys are like that. )

I hope this clarifies, 'cause this has veered us way off-topic. Sorry.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

CPT-Doom said:

[quote]My only issue is I highly doubt any (or at least very few) professional player has had the experience of being "checked out" by some guy and is basing their dislike of having a gay teammate on that experience. One thing I noticed when I was still closeted and around str8 guys almost all the time is that they are relatively clueless when they're being noticed (not cruised, mind you, but noticed). I don't know if a guy would be more likely to pick up on that in a locker room or not, but I am willing to bet that any gay player who is able to hide their sexuality and play at the pro level would have learned either to 1) not notice anyone or 2) notice without drawing attention to themselves.

---

My lockeroom experience was that guys were always checking eachother out and commenting loudly, hence all the guys nicknamed "horse" or "bull" or whatever on various high school teams.

It's another offshoot of gay liberation, it seems like there was a hell of lot more unmentioned man on man sex going on (military, sports teams, etc.) before we demanded our "rights."

Now I'm not saying I would change things back, and there are other factors (AIDS, the Oprah-ization of outing sexual abuse in society) that have caused much greater scrutiny of everyone's sex lives.

Hope I haven't gone too far off topic.

IMHO it's not so much gay rights as it is the country's swing right in the last decade or two. On the other hand, more and more people appear to be exploring the boundaries of their sexuality, due in large measure to the Web.

Topic. Sorry.

and mtv and gay-influenced advertising.

Please post your comments in the other Esera thread.