Full Version: An ex-Viking to come out on HBO?
I saw Sterling Sharpe's comments on Sports Center this morning. He was relaying how he thought an out gay player's teammates would react. I think he said that the player would be "eaten alive." (Or maybe that was someone else's quote). He also said that an out gay player would be a new thing. He never gave his personal thoughts about it, or whether or not he would support an out gay player, though.
I don't think Jay Croft was necessarily saying that he's not handsome, I think instead he was contrasting the status of the journeyman player with the star. Certainly, even among the best of the NFL, MLB or any other pro sports, it is not only the talented that get the endorsements, it is the talented and charismatic and good-looking (think Steve Young versus Jerry Rice). Certainly race/ethnicity plays into whether someone is successful with endorsements, etc.
There is truth, though, to what Croft says about being a little let-down that the really big-name stars who are thought to be gay still won't come out. It may actually be that their post-career earnings are even more at stake if they come out after retirement.
There is truth, though, to what Croft says about being a little let-down that the really big-name stars who are thought to be gay still won't come out. It may actually be that their post-career earnings are even more at stake if they come out after retirement.
[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
I wonder what brother Shannon thinks of Sterlings comments. Shannon has struck me as being open- minded and fairly tolerant, if occassionally bombastic and self-promoting.
Shannon has always struck me as playing for our team. Flamboyant, vain, bodybuilding fanatic, bachelor. And if I'm right, I would be the last to complain about it. Especially if I found out personally.
I wonder what brother Shannon thinks of Sterlings comments. Shannon has struck me as being open- minded and fairly tolerant, if occassionally bombastic and self-promoting.
Shannon has always struck me as playing for our team. Flamboyant, vain, bodybuilding fanatic, bachelor. And if I'm right, I would be the last to complain about it. Especially if I found out personally.
I remember Esera Tuaolo's name and the fact that he was from Hawaii. Being a Cowboys fan (shhh!!! no snickering from the peanut gllery. ), I really didn't follow his career, but I do remember the name.
I don't seen where Mr. Croft assesses the unattractiveness of Mr. Tuaolo. I find him very handsome.
I read that Mr. Tuaolo's revelation will not change anything. I disagree. I believe everytime a pro jock comes out, active or retired, it does advance change. The change we are looking for will come in small steps.
Good going Mr. Tuaolo...Cheers to you buddy.
I don't seen where Mr. Croft assesses the unattractiveness of Mr. Tuaolo. I find him very handsome.
I read that Mr. Tuaolo's revelation will not change anything. I disagree. I believe everytime a pro jock comes out, active or retired, it does advance change. The change we are looking for will come in small steps.
Good going Mr. Tuaolo...Cheers to you buddy.
First off, I think Jay Croft is cute. I love geeky guys. Here's his actual quote: [quote]Would his story be different if he had been a star, as handsome and marketable as Piazza?
Is Tuaolo as handsome as Mike Piazza? Not many would make that claim. Esera Tuaolo is not classically handsome, IMHO. There are plenty of classically handsome guys that are people of color [see: Michael Jordan or Tony Gonzalez or.....]. Croft's point is that if he looked like Piazza--or the Sharpe brothers or Emmitt Smith or Donovan McNabb or any number of athletes-of-color who do endorsements--AND if he was a well-known athlete, would his story have been different? That's a fair question and to paint Croft with a Eurocentric brush AND diss his looks in the same way you imagine he did to Tuaolo, is a bit unfair. The fact is, a lot of gay men--no matter what their ethnic makeup--are going to see him and go "Damn! Why doesn't he look like [insert name of who they think is hot]" or "Too bad he's not cute like [insert name of who they think is hot]". It's cruel and shallow but it's just one of the many little issues that someone coming out so publicly will encounter.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
Is Tuaolo as handsome as Mike Piazza? Not many would make that claim. Esera Tuaolo is not classically handsome, IMHO. There are plenty of classically handsome guys that are people of color [see: Michael Jordan or Tony Gonzalez or.....]. Croft's point is that if he looked like Piazza--or the Sharpe brothers or Emmitt Smith or Donovan McNabb or any number of athletes-of-color who do endorsements--AND if he was a well-known athlete, would his story have been different? That's a fair question and to paint Croft with a Eurocentric brush AND diss his looks in the same way you imagine he did to Tuaolo, is a bit unfair. The fact is, a lot of gay men--no matter what their ethnic makeup--are going to see him and go "Damn! Why doesn't he look like [insert name of who they think is hot]" or "Too bad he's not cute like [insert name of who they think is hot]". It's cruel and shallow but it's just one of the many little issues that someone coming out so publicly will encounter.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
Foxsports' "best damn sports show period" discussed this issue.
For the most part, they were supportive and positive. Machael Irvin said it would take a gay man "with a thick skin" and "more courage than Jackie Robinson" to come out while still playing. The rest of the guys, (chris Rose, Tom Arnold... ) were supportive too.
But the guy who surprised me was John Salley. His comments were very positive and very cool. They also were realistic. He said it would be hell to come out. and he talked about the looks he gets when he's with his gay friends. But overall... his comments were very gay positive.
For the most part, they were supportive and positive. Machael Irvin said it would take a gay man "with a thick skin" and "more courage than Jackie Robinson" to come out while still playing. The rest of the guys, (chris Rose, Tom Arnold... ) were supportive too.
But the guy who surprised me was John Salley. His comments were very positive and very cool. They also were realistic. He said it would be hell to come out. and he talked about the looks he gets when he's with his gay friends. But overall... his comments were very gay positive.
[quote]Originally posted by Jim Allen:
First off, I think Jay Croft is cute. I love geeky guys. Here's his actual quote: Esera Tuaolo is not classically handsome. That's not ethnic or cultural superiority, it's just the way it is. It has nothing to do with race. There are plenty of classically handsome guys that are people of color [see: Michael Jordan or Tony Gonzalez or.....]. Croft's point is that if he looked like Piazza--or the Sharpe brothers or Emmitt Smith or Donovan McNabb or any number of athletes-of-color who do endorsements--AND if he was a well-known athlete, would his story have been different? That's a fair question and to paint him with a Eurocentric brush--AND diss his looks in the same way you imagine he did to Tuaolo, just rings false. The fact is, a lot of gay men--no matter what their ethnic makeup--are going to see him and go "Damn! Why doesn't he look like [insert name of who they think is hot]". It's cruel and shallow but it's just one of the many little issues that someone coming out so publicly will encounter.
1. Jay Croft may be a stone-cold geek, but IMHO, he's not a handsome geek. A handsome geek IMHO would be Steve, the father of Miranda's baby on "Sex & The City".
2. Michael Jordan is not "classically handsome". Michael Jordan is however, one fine-ass handsome dark-skinned Black man who broke a lot of barriers on the Eurocentric standards of male beauty, both in society at large and within the Black community.
3. Croft did not mention Jordan, Donovan McNabb, Emmitt Smith or the Sharpe brothers as examples. He mentioned Piazza. That speaks volumes of his ethnocentrism.
4. Gay men wishing that someone famous that they were attracted to would come out has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and actually detracts from it. It's about as surreal as some straight pasty middle-aged paunchy coach potato living in a trailer in Dubuque screaming at the tube "Damn! I wish Pamela Anderson would give me a blow job!" Who cares what some gay geek thinks is hot, and why does that enter into this coming out story? Even if someone like Piazza did come out of the closet, why would he want someone like Croft?
First off, I think Jay Croft is cute. I love geeky guys. Here's his actual quote: Esera Tuaolo is not classically handsome. That's not ethnic or cultural superiority, it's just the way it is. It has nothing to do with race. There are plenty of classically handsome guys that are people of color [see: Michael Jordan or Tony Gonzalez or.....]. Croft's point is that if he looked like Piazza--or the Sharpe brothers or Emmitt Smith or Donovan McNabb or any number of athletes-of-color who do endorsements--AND if he was a well-known athlete, would his story have been different? That's a fair question and to paint him with a Eurocentric brush--AND diss his looks in the same way you imagine he did to Tuaolo, just rings false. The fact is, a lot of gay men--no matter what their ethnic makeup--are going to see him and go "Damn! Why doesn't he look like [insert name of who they think is hot]". It's cruel and shallow but it's just one of the many little issues that someone coming out so publicly will encounter.
1. Jay Croft may be a stone-cold geek, but IMHO, he's not a handsome geek. A handsome geek IMHO would be Steve, the father of Miranda's baby on "Sex & The City".
2. Michael Jordan is not "classically handsome". Michael Jordan is however, one fine-ass handsome dark-skinned Black man who broke a lot of barriers on the Eurocentric standards of male beauty, both in society at large and within the Black community.
3. Croft did not mention Jordan, Donovan McNabb, Emmitt Smith or the Sharpe brothers as examples. He mentioned Piazza. That speaks volumes of his ethnocentrism.
4. Gay men wishing that someone famous that they were attracted to would come out has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and actually detracts from it. It's about as surreal as some straight pasty middle-aged paunchy coach potato living in a trailer in Dubuque screaming at the tube "Damn! I wish Pamela Anderson would give me a blow job!" Who cares what some gay geek thinks is hot, and why does that enter into this coming out story? Even if someone like Piazza did come out of the closet, why would he want someone like Croft?
[quote]Originally posted by ung:
But the guy who surprised me was John Salley. His comments were very positive and very cool. They also were realistic. He said it would be hell to come out. and he talked about the looks he gets when he's with his gay friends. But overall... his comments were very gay positive.
John Salley is very cool and comfortable with himself. I've hung out with him before at a few gatherings. He has no problem with gay folks and is very art-sy and approachable. He actually enjoys male attention, almost flirty. Not a gay bone in his body, though.
Most straight guys could learn a lot from him.
But the guy who surprised me was John Salley. His comments were very positive and very cool. They also were realistic. He said it would be hell to come out. and he talked about the looks he gets when he's with his gay friends. But overall... his comments were very gay positive.
John Salley is very cool and comfortable with himself. I've hung out with him before at a few gatherings. He has no problem with gay folks and is very art-sy and approachable. He actually enjoys male attention, almost flirty. Not a gay bone in his body, though.
Most straight guys could learn a lot from him.
[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
What nerve Jay Croft has to suggest that Esera Tuaolo is not handsome! Esera could be my lineman any ole' time! And I'm sure plenty of people feel that way. Jay Croft is the one who has a face that only a mother can love. Croft's comments reek of ethnic or cultural superiority.
First of all, here's the exact quote from the column: "Would his story be different if he had been a star, as handsome and marketable as Piazza?"
He isn't necessarily saying Tuaolo ISN'T handsome. He thinks the general opinion is that Piazza is better looking. I happen to prefer Piazza. Tuaolo isn't bad, though I'd like to see him in more than just that one photo. But I'd be more attracted to Piazza. Your mileage may vary. People have their own tastes.
But if that's not bad enough, then you go and do the same thing to Croft that you accuse him of doing to Tuaolo, plus make an implication that he might be a bigot!
I think I hear a pot speaking to a kettle in the background....
[quote]Oh, and it's not Shannon Sharpe who made the comments, but his older brother Sterling, a current ESPN commentator who actually played on the Vikings with Esera Tuaolo back in the day. Croft is coming across in this article as a ditzy gay man who knows little about sports, beyond who is cute and who is not.
Try reading the article and this message board again. Croft's article CLEARLY states the comments came from STERLING. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]
What nerve Jay Croft has to suggest that Esera Tuaolo is not handsome! Esera could be my lineman any ole' time! And I'm sure plenty of people feel that way. Jay Croft is the one who has a face that only a mother can love. Croft's comments reek of ethnic or cultural superiority.
First of all, here's the exact quote from the column: "Would his story be different if he had been a star, as handsome and marketable as Piazza?"
He isn't necessarily saying Tuaolo ISN'T handsome. He thinks the general opinion is that Piazza is better looking. I happen to prefer Piazza. Tuaolo isn't bad, though I'd like to see him in more than just that one photo. But I'd be more attracted to Piazza. Your mileage may vary. People have their own tastes.
But if that's not bad enough, then you go and do the same thing to Croft that you accuse him of doing to Tuaolo, plus make an implication that he might be a bigot!
I think I hear a pot speaking to a kettle in the background....
[quote]Oh, and it's not Shannon Sharpe who made the comments, but his older brother Sterling, a current ESPN commentator who actually played on the Vikings with Esera Tuaolo back in the day. Croft is coming across in this article as a ditzy gay man who knows little about sports, beyond who is cute and who is not.
Try reading the article and this message board again. Croft's article CLEARLY states the comments came from STERLING. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]
[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
3. Croft did not mention Jordan, Donovan McNabb, Emmitt Smith or the Sharpe brothers as examples. He mentioned Piazza. That speaks volumes of his ethnocentrism.
4. Gay men wishing that someone famous that they were attracted to would come out has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and actually detracts from it. It's about as surreal as some straight pasty middle-aged paunchy coach potato living in a trailer in Dubuque screaming at the tube "Damn! I wish Pamela Anderson would give me a blow job!" Who cares what some gay geek thinks is hot, and why does that enter into this coming out story? Even if someone like Piazza did come out of the closet, why would he want someone like Croft?
He mentioned Piazza because Piazza was in the news regarding rumors about his sexuality. The others WEREN'T. Just another irresponsible statement on your part.
3. Croft did not mention Jordan, Donovan McNabb, Emmitt Smith or the Sharpe brothers as examples. He mentioned Piazza. That speaks volumes of his ethnocentrism.
4. Gay men wishing that someone famous that they were attracted to would come out has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and actually detracts from it. It's about as surreal as some straight pasty middle-aged paunchy coach potato living in a trailer in Dubuque screaming at the tube "Damn! I wish Pamela Anderson would give me a blow job!" Who cares what some gay geek thinks is hot, and why does that enter into this coming out story? Even if someone like Piazza did come out of the closet, why would he want someone like Croft?
He mentioned Piazza because Piazza was in the news regarding rumors about his sexuality. The others WEREN'T. Just another irresponsible statement on your part.
damn...yella' dawg sure has a way of firin' some people up!
chill, joe!
personally, even though i'm an equal opportunity sort (with RQ leanings) i don't find Tuaolo attractive based on that picture.
chill, joe!
personally, even though i'm an equal opportunity sort (with RQ leanings) i don't find Tuaolo attractive based on that picture.
[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
Try reading the article and this message board again. Croft's article CLEARLY states the comments came from STERLING. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
That article most definitely said "Shannon Sharpe", NOT Sterling, yesterday when I posted my response. Other posters to this board can verify this. Sportinlife posted about it before I did, I followed the link, and I read the article with my own two eyes.
Your pasty geeky lover boy or his editors must have been made aware of his grievous (and potentially libelous) error and had it changed immediately. Maybe he even reads these boards?
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
Try reading the article and this message board again. Croft's article CLEARLY states the comments came from STERLING. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
That article most definitely said "Shannon Sharpe", NOT Sterling, yesterday when I posted my response. Other posters to this board can verify this. Sportinlife posted about it before I did, I followed the link, and I read the article with my own two eyes.
Your pasty geeky lover boy or his editors must have been made aware of his grievous (and potentially libelous) error and had it changed immediately. Maybe he even reads these boards?
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
Try reading the article and this message board again. Croft's article CLEARLY states the comments came from STERLING. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]
Hello, just call me
[quote]. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
Apparently I either misread the Croft article or it's been updated. Since it's been a long week I'll assume my mind just substituted the familiar for the unfamiliar.
Now you boys can go back to playing nice.
Try reading the article and this message board again. Croft's article CLEARLY states the comments came from STERLING. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]
Hello, just call me
[quote]. It was some posters HERE who brought up SHANNON.
Apparently I either misread the Croft article or it's been updated. Since it's been a long week I'll assume my mind just substituted the familiar for the unfamiliar.
Now you boys can go back to playing nice.
No you did NOT misread.
I followed the link that you posted and read the very same thing.
He made a journalistic error, someone caught it, and they updated/edited it.
I followed the link that you posted and read the very same thing.
He made a journalistic error, someone caught it, and they updated/edited it.
[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
Your pasty geeky lover boy or his editors must have been made aware of his grievous (and potentially libelous) error
Grievous? Potentially libelous? Explain how Shannon Sharpe is libeled because a comment by his brother, which was a speculative opinion about someone else altogether, was erroneously attributed to him?
Your pasty geeky lover boy or his editors must have been made aware of his grievous (and potentially libelous) error
Grievous? Potentially libelous? Explain how Shannon Sharpe is libeled because a comment by his brother, which was a speculative opinion about someone else altogether, was erroneously attributed to him?
Joe:
I don't have the time, or patience, or quite frankly, the interest, to explain everything to you, but you might want to look up the following landmark libel per se cases:
1. Milkovich v. Lorain Journal
2. Masson v. New Yorker Magazine, Inc.
I don't have the time, or patience, or quite frankly, the interest, to explain everything to you, but you might want to look up the following landmark libel per se cases:
1. Milkovich v. Lorain Journal
2. Masson v. New Yorker Magazine, Inc.
Croft writes:
"And because, admit it, it's sexy and empowering to think about a rich, famous, good-looking athlete who's one of us and happy to say so.
...
We were hoping for a Joe Montana, but did we get football's Billy Bean, instead?"
There is a slight implication that this Tuaolo issue is a big letdown ie. he's NOT the "rich, famous (or) good-looking" athlete we can brag about. He's another Billy Bean (or Deric Peterson).
I'm not saying he's a racist or a look-ist, but when you add up the sum of his columns (the dating criteria one, for instance) one can see how some might get that impression.
"And because, admit it, it's sexy and empowering to think about a rich, famous, good-looking athlete who's one of us and happy to say so.
...
We were hoping for a Joe Montana, but did we get football's Billy Bean, instead?"
There is a slight implication that this Tuaolo issue is a big letdown ie. he's NOT the "rich, famous (or) good-looking" athlete we can brag about. He's another Billy Bean (or Deric Peterson).
I'm not saying he's a racist or a look-ist, but when you add up the sum of his columns (the dating criteria one, for instance) one can see how some might get that impression.
[quote]There is a slight implication that this Tuaolo issue is a big letdown ie. he's NOT the "rich, famous (or) good-looking" athlete we can brag about. He's another Billy Bean (or Deric Peterson).
It IS a letdown, but for a different reason. None of these people are having, or going to have, a large impact on the psyche of the nation, or of the sports world at least. They're not generating all that much discussion about gays in sports. Until someone on the level of a Mike Piazza comes out, progress will continue to be minimal.
As for being a look-ist, that charge can be applied to many of us.
It IS a letdown, but for a different reason. None of these people are having, or going to have, a large impact on the psyche of the nation, or of the sports world at least. They're not generating all that much discussion about gays in sports. Until someone on the level of a Mike Piazza comes out, progress will continue to be minimal.
As for being a look-ist, that charge can be applied to many of us.
Man!... Chill out already! Why get all bent outta shape over what this dude in an Atlanta newspaper said about Tualo. If he goes more for the Piazza type, so be it, to each his own.
And, BTW, wouldn't what is and isn't considered "classic good looks" be a relative thang?... And I ain't talkin' about the social mores of hillbillies (lol)
And, BTW, wouldn't what is and isn't considered "classic good looks" be a relative thang?... And I ain't talkin' about the social mores of hillbillies (lol)
Tuaolo aiight (if that's your thang), but hit me back when Rams WR Torry "Big Game" (Oh the possibilities...) Holt hits "the field".
Let's give Jay Croft a break here. First off, the fact that he's a "gay voice" for a major newspaper is a big deal, and we should cut him some slack for having the courage to do so.
More important, I don't think that Jay was saying Esera was unattractive or unhandsome at all. Here's how I read Jay's comments: It's great that a former NFL player came out, but it would have been even GREATER if a major star - someone who was well known and considered drop dead georgous by most of the country - had come out of the closet.
He was merely saying that if a well-known, good-looking athlete had come out, it would have made more of a difference. But he's also saying he'll take what he can get.
More important, I don't think that Jay was saying Esera was unattractive or unhandsome at all. Here's how I read Jay's comments: It's great that a former NFL player came out, but it would have been even GREATER if a major star - someone who was well known and considered drop dead georgous by most of the country - had come out of the closet.
He was merely saying that if a well-known, good-looking athlete had come out, it would have made more of a difference. But he's also saying he'll take what he can get.
[quote]Originally posted by Lil J:
Tuaolo aiight (if that's your thang), but hit me back when Rams WR Torry "Big Game" (Oh the possibilities...) Holt hits "the field".
Looks like Torry's been spoken for
Damn!!
Tuaolo aiight (if that's your thang), but hit me back when Rams WR Torry "Big Game" (Oh the possibilities...) Holt hits "the field".
Looks like Torry's been spoken for
Damn!!
Tuaolo... I HAVE heard of him.. in fact, I have one of the CDs that his his song with Lari White (NFL Country). His is the only song with true talent (and it includes a song with Troy Aikman and Toby Keith...now, there's a sandwich!!).
Best of Luck to him on a successful singing career!!!!!!
Best of Luck to him on a successful singing career!!!!!!
He's also done a duet with someone named Suzy K. I have no idea who she is or what she sounds like but she also does a duet with Donny Osmond on the same album.
The reviewer seems impressed with Tuaolo's performance.
The reviewer seems impressed with Tuaolo's performance.
I think people are raking Croft over the coals a little too much here. Had he listed off several possibilities for a famous, handsome marketable superstar, all of them white, it would have been ethnocentric. I expect Piazza was on his mind because of the famous "I'm heterosexual" press conference. Stars just have a bigger impact on the popular mind--Magic Johnson having HIV for example created far more of a splash than Glen Burke or Alan Wiggins dying of AIDS.
One thing that strikes me about Sharpe's comments: I can't recall anybody in baseball making such an extreme prediction of player reaction. Most have expressed "it would be difficult", but the tone of this seemed much more aggressive, possibly physically threatening. Is football much more homophobic than baseball? Has anybody played both college football and college baseball on the site? That might give some insight into the mindset of the pros.
One thing that strikes me about Sharpe's comments: I can't recall anybody in baseball making such an extreme prediction of player reaction. Most have expressed "it would be difficult", but the tone of this seemed much more aggressive, possibly physically threatening. Is football much more homophobic than baseball? Has anybody played both college football and college baseball on the site? That might give some insight into the mindset of the pros.
From: PCC
It's Esera Tuaolo. I really have never heard of him.
From: ToonDeft
I don't remember Esera Tuaolo from his year on the Packers, either. A 35th round draft pick would have to have been quite a stand-out to get noticed.
From: Zman
Be interesting to see if his lack of notoriety weakens the wave potential. I mean 5 teams in 9 years pretty much makes you a nobody...
From:George_vikingfan?
I am curious though, if the frequent moves had anything to do with his homosexuality and management either knowing or suspecting?
In the interview Esera said he would HATE having a good game because of the instant noteriety it might cause. He would sweat watching Sportscenter hoping his name never came up.
That MIGHT be the reason he moved around a lot and nobody remembers him...
I wonder how many other nobodies we'll watch playing tomorrow unconciously hoping for an average game?
Maddog
It's Esera Tuaolo. I really have never heard of him.
From: ToonDeft
I don't remember Esera Tuaolo from his year on the Packers, either. A 35th round draft pick would have to have been quite a stand-out to get noticed.
From: Zman
Be interesting to see if his lack of notoriety weakens the wave potential. I mean 5 teams in 9 years pretty much makes you a nobody...
From:George_vikingfan?
I am curious though, if the frequent moves had anything to do with his homosexuality and management either knowing or suspecting?
In the interview Esera said he would HATE having a good game because of the instant noteriety it might cause. He would sweat watching Sportscenter hoping his name never came up.
That MIGHT be the reason he moved around a lot and nobody remembers him...
I wonder how many other nobodies we'll watch playing tomorrow unconciously hoping for an average game?
Maddog
Tuaolo looks just fine to me. I dated a Hawaiian guy for a while and he reminds me of him, studly NCAA baseball player, muscle guy that he was. When he smiled, his face lighted up the room - and my heart. I'm happy for Tuaolo's partner and for him, and not just because how he looks. I always like an underdog/odd man out and if Tuaolo's critics want to cast him as such, directly or indirectly with left-handed compliments, that only endears him to me all the more. Especially when he bared his soul in telling his story.
BTW, good cites, YellaDawg. You're right on point, although I'm not sure I like the demise of the opinion =/= defamation rule. The new law's not so Friendly anymore!
BTW, good cites, YellaDawg. You're right on point, although I'm not sure I like the demise of the opinion =/= defamation rule. The new law's not so Friendly anymore!
[quote]
I don't understand the reaction from Esera. If he was deep in the closet anyway, what would a litle notoriety have changed?
I don't understand the reaction from Esera. If he was deep in the closet anyway, what would a litle notoriety have changed?
[quote]Originally posted by Maddog:
In the interview Esera said he would HATE having a good game because of the instant noteriety it might cause. He would sweat watching Sportscenter hoping his name never came up.
That MIGHT be the reason he moved around a lot and nobody remembers him...
This is the quote I tried to paste before. Can anyone tell me how to accurately post quotes from other poster's messages? It seems so damn unnecessarily complicated!
In the interview Esera said he would HATE having a good game because of the instant noteriety it might cause. He would sweat watching Sportscenter hoping his name never came up.
That MIGHT be the reason he moved around a lot and nobody remembers him...
This is the quote I tried to paste before. Can anyone tell me how to accurately post quotes from other poster's messages? It seems so damn unnecessarily complicated!
Esera is SAMOAN, baby! Here's another photo of him. The bro looks damn good!
Lots of beautiful Samoan men in the NFL, including Junior Seau, one of the handsomest men in the league.
More on Esera here on the Honolulu Star-Bulletin.
Lots of beautiful Samoan men in the NFL, including Junior Seau, one of the handsomest men in the league.
More on Esera here on the Honolulu Star-Bulletin.
This is how Vince Lombardi confronted homophobia against active player Ray McDonald:
[quote]Ray McDonald had been the team's No. 1 draft choice in 1967 from the University of Idaho. On paper, he was an incredible talent: huge, fast and powerful, 6-foot-4 and 248 pounds. Williams had selected McDonald himself, the club president's most conspicuous intrusion into the realm of player personnel, and had been disappointed by McDonald's performance during his rookie year. Surely Lombardi could get the best out of him. It so happened that McDonald was gay. The players and coaches knew it; some felt uncomfortable about it and talked about him behind his back. Lombardi didn't care. His own brother Harold was gay. He had made it a point throughout his coaching career that he would not tolerate discrimination of any sort on his teams. "George," he said to Dickson. "I want you to get on McDonald and work on him and work on him -- and if I hear one of you people make reference to his manhood, you'll be out of here before your ass hits the ground."
Wonder if any current NFL coaches have set similarly clear standards for their players.
[quote]Ray McDonald had been the team's No. 1 draft choice in 1967 from the University of Idaho. On paper, he was an incredible talent: huge, fast and powerful, 6-foot-4 and 248 pounds. Williams had selected McDonald himself, the club president's most conspicuous intrusion into the realm of player personnel, and had been disappointed by McDonald's performance during his rookie year. Surely Lombardi could get the best out of him. It so happened that McDonald was gay. The players and coaches knew it; some felt uncomfortable about it and talked about him behind his back. Lombardi didn't care. His own brother Harold was gay. He had made it a point throughout his coaching career that he would not tolerate discrimination of any sort on his teams. "George," he said to Dickson. "I want you to get on McDonald and work on him and work on him -- and if I hear one of you people make reference to his manhood, you'll be out of here before your ass hits the ground."
Wonder if any current NFL coaches have set similarly clear standards for their players.
I have written a profile on Tuaolo.
There are also comments from several NFL players, linked from our front.
There are also comments from several NFL players, linked from our front.
He's definitely a lot better looking in that picture. It's amazing the effect of facial expressions.
Here it is 4:22 am EST (fall back included) and I'm reading about what I consider a groundbreaking event in the history of the movement of gay liberation.
I'm glad I'm reading it first on Outsports, though the majority of the people around the world will encounter it in a different medium and context - many of them perhaps less sympathetic to Esera Tuaolo.
Hopefully those of us on the board, disappointed that he is not the stereotypical superstar that so many wanted or expected, will nonetheless be totally and unihibitedly supportive of Tuaolo and what he has done.
If movements get the heroes they desserve, I think we have certainly been fortunate.
Great articles Jim and Cyd. I read every word of every article non-stop rather than skimming this time.
I probably will continue that for a while - as future pieces appear - but I look forward to the day when I see such headlines, yawn, and simply move on to something "more newsworthy."
Edited to remove sleepy-eyed errors.
[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
I'm glad I'm reading it first on Outsports, though the majority of the people around the world will encounter it in a different medium and context - many of them perhaps less sympathetic to Esera Tuaolo.
Hopefully those of us on the board, disappointed that he is not the stereotypical superstar that so many wanted or expected, will nonetheless be totally and unihibitedly supportive of Tuaolo and what he has done.
If movements get the heroes they desserve, I think we have certainly been fortunate.
Great articles Jim and Cyd. I read every word of every article non-stop rather than skimming this time.
I probably will continue that for a while - as future pieces appear - but I look forward to the day when I see such headlines, yawn, and simply move on to something "more newsworthy."
Edited to remove sleepy-eyed errors.
[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
Ex-Packer Leroy Butler on Esera: "... A lot of guys would be upset. Particularly because football players shower together. I'm sure a lot of guys are looking back right now and wondering if Tuaolo was checking them out ... I have to admit, if I knew an openly gay guy was in the shower, I would not be in a rush to it there."
First, I want it made clear that Butler's overall take on this subject was quite positive. However, what I wish to address here is this unreasonable FEAR (and that's exactly what it is), on the part of heterosexual men, of being in a communal shower with an openly gay man. It completely mystifies me.
For one, hypnotic, Svengali-like powers are not inherent with our homosexuality (though some of us may wish differently) Gay men have no indefensible way of forcing an otherwise sexually content heterosexual man into losing his freaking mind and involuntarily capitulating to some whacked-out NFL version of Caligula, be he in the shower or on the street. If one is secure in one's sexuality and simply "don't go that way", wherein lies the reason for this proximity discomfort? Is it an instinctive aversion to someone whom you find totally sexually unattractive -- yet who MAY find you physically attractive -- looking at you nude? (the only reason outside of blind prejudice that I could conceive of) And, if this be the case, would their reaction be the same in the presence of a sexually unattractive female reporter hanging around the locker room? Somehow, I don't think so.
Perhaps this irrational behavior on the part of these so-called "macho" pro-athletes stems from an awareness and fear(consciously or sub-consciously) of that latent Pandora's Box called human sexuality, and what "exploring" it -- by consistently being in the presence of a gay co-worker, thus the inevitable mental reflection upon the concept of homosexuality and all that it entails -- could potentially reveal of themselves.
Also, Butler stressed the word "openly". Does that mean his aversion to "rushing" into the shower would not exist if he privately knew a teammate was gay yet others did not? Why would, or should, that make a difference?
First, I want it made clear that Butler's overall take on this subject was quite positive. However, what I wish to address here is this unreasonable FEAR (and that's exactly what it is), on the part of heterosexual men, of being in a communal shower with an openly gay man. It completely mystifies me.
For one, hypnotic, Svengali-like powers are not inherent with our homosexuality (though some of us may wish differently) Gay men have no indefensible way of forcing an otherwise sexually content heterosexual man into losing his freaking mind and involuntarily capitulating to some whacked-out NFL version of Caligula, be he in the shower or on the street. If one is secure in one's sexuality and simply "don't go that way", wherein lies the reason for this proximity discomfort? Is it an instinctive aversion to someone whom you find totally sexually unattractive -- yet who MAY find you physically attractive -- looking at you nude? (the only reason outside of blind prejudice that I could conceive of) And, if this be the case, would their reaction be the same in the presence of a sexually unattractive female reporter hanging around the locker room? Somehow, I don't think so.
Perhaps this irrational behavior on the part of these so-called "macho" pro-athletes stems from an awareness and fear(consciously or sub-consciously) of that latent Pandora's Box called human sexuality, and what "exploring" it -- by consistently being in the presence of a gay co-worker, thus the inevitable mental reflection upon the concept of homosexuality and all that it entails -- could potentially reveal of themselves.
Also, Butler stressed the word "openly". Does that mean his aversion to "rushing" into the shower would not exist if he privately knew a teammate was gay yet others did not? Why would, or should, that make a difference?
[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
Looks like Torry's been spoken for
Damn!!
DAMN! Is right, Sportinlife!... I'd sure like to be able to hold Torry (THE cutest azz in all the NFL) like that!
Looks like Torry's been spoken for
Damn!!
DAMN! Is right, Sportinlife!... I'd sure like to be able to hold Torry (THE cutest azz in all the NFL) like that!
On the shower thing: there are two differences between a woman and a gay man that might make the gay man more threatening. A gay man might be physically threatening, and men are often mythologized as having uncontrollable sex drives. I remember a court case in which the judge cited as a mitigating factor in a rape case the fact that the victim (a stripper) had "incited the man's lust". I wonder if at a subconscious level there is a fear, not of seduction, but of rape.
Of course, it's still irrational. The straight guys are imagining their own response to showering with women, and neglecting to consider that a gay guy has been showering with men for years. The sight of naked men isn't going to overwhelm him with desire because he's used to it, just as seeing naked women wouldn't excite straight guys in a culture where nudity was normal. In addition, any intelligent and thoughtful football player knows that statistically, there probably is at least one gay man on their team. If the unknown gay man hasn't been bothering him, why should knowing make a difference? That's the rational response, but unfortunately, reason doesn't rule people's behavior much of the time.
Of course, it's still irrational. The straight guys are imagining their own response to showering with women, and neglecting to consider that a gay guy has been showering with men for years. The sight of naked men isn't going to overwhelm him with desire because he's used to it, just as seeing naked women wouldn't excite straight guys in a culture where nudity was normal. In addition, any intelligent and thoughtful football player knows that statistically, there probably is at least one gay man on their team. If the unknown gay man hasn't been bothering him, why should knowing make a difference? That's the rational response, but unfortunately, reason doesn't rule people's behavior much of the time.
The whole worry about showering seemed a bit odd to me too. I don't think it's the worry about actual sexual aggression. It's just that guys like Shockey don't want to be 'checked out' while they're in the shower. And there is something legitimate to the point that you shouldn't have to be forced into a situation where you could be viewed in a sexual manner regarldess of whether you're a woman or a man or what your orientation is.
But the idea that every gay man is constantly on the look out for a peep show is what bothered me. Seems like all folks like Shockey etc know is a stereotype. Too, If I'd just played a football game getting hammered by a bunch of 300 pound guys, it wouldn't matter if it were the elephant man or Ricky Williams - I'm probably not checking them out because I'm too beat up.
But the idea that every gay man is constantly on the look out for a peep show is what bothered me. Seems like all folks like Shockey etc know is a stereotype. Too, If I'd just played a football game getting hammered by a bunch of 300 pound guys, it wouldn't matter if it were the elephant man or Ricky Williams - I'm probably not checking them out because I'm too beat up.
[quote]Originally posted by JC:
[QB]On the shower thing: there are two differences between a woman and a gay man that might make the gay man more threatening. A gay man might be physically threatening, and men are often mythologized as having uncontrollable sex drives. I remember a court case in which the judge cited as a mitigating factor in a rape case the fact that the victim (a stripper) had "incited the man's lust". I wonder if at a subconscious level there is a fear, not of seduction, but of rape.
Of course, it's still irrational. The straight guys are imagining their own response to showering with women, and neglecting to consider that a gay guy has been showering with men for years. The sight of naked men isn't going to overwhelm him with desire because he's used to it, just as seeing naked women wouldn't excite straight guys in a culture where nudity was normal. QB]
Excellent points, JC. Especially the possible sub-conscious fear of rape. Still, it's an irrational fear for exactly the reasons you mention.
[QB]On the shower thing: there are two differences between a woman and a gay man that might make the gay man more threatening. A gay man might be physically threatening, and men are often mythologized as having uncontrollable sex drives. I remember a court case in which the judge cited as a mitigating factor in a rape case the fact that the victim (a stripper) had "incited the man's lust". I wonder if at a subconscious level there is a fear, not of seduction, but of rape.
Of course, it's still irrational. The straight guys are imagining their own response to showering with women, and neglecting to consider that a gay guy has been showering with men for years. The sight of naked men isn't going to overwhelm him with desire because he's used to it, just as seeing naked women wouldn't excite straight guys in a culture where nudity was normal. QB]
Excellent points, JC. Especially the possible sub-conscious fear of rape. Still, it's an irrational fear for exactly the reasons you mention.
I think it was Henry Rollins who said that the reason for most homophobia from guys is the fact that guys are dogs and they'll screw anything.
Homophobic guys know that they've screwed watermelons and apple pies when a woman wasn't around. If in a situation where there is no woman, no watermelon and no apple pie and a gay guy is, as remote as it might be, there is a negligible chance a situation could arise that he would have sex with the gay man. Therefore for his own safety he shuns any conversation and refuses any attept at tolerance. Not because he's afraid of the gay guy, but afraid of his own inherent dogness.
Maddog
Homophobic guys know that they've screwed watermelons and apple pies when a woman wasn't around. If in a situation where there is no woman, no watermelon and no apple pie and a gay guy is, as remote as it might be, there is a negligible chance a situation could arise that he would have sex with the gay man. Therefore for his own safety he shuns any conversation and refuses any attept at tolerance. Not because he's afraid of the gay guy, but afraid of his own inherent dogness.
Maddog
[quote]Originally posted by CTJim:
[QB]The whole worry about showering seemed a bit odd to me too. I don't think it's the worry about actual sexual aggression. It's just that guys like Shockey don't want to be 'checked out' while they're in the shower. And there is something legitimate to the point that you shouldn't have to be forced into a situation where you could be viewed in a sexual manner regarldess of whether you're a woman or a man or what your orientation is.
QB]
But that's just it, in the typical NFL locker room setting the possibility of being "viewed in a sexual manner" is unavoidable. As someone here noted earlier -- as did ex-Packer Leroy Butler -- players are aware enough to realize the likelihood that someone on their team is probably gay. I guess the point could be argued that in the homophobes mind, there's a difference between understanding the probability of a teammate being gay and that of removing all doubt. Maybe I'm just too liberal minded on this whole being "checked out" thing. I don't see the big deal. I mean, there are some men that I have known that are, imo, UUUUGLY! And these men were really attracted sexually to me. Now, I in no way found them sexually appealing (some even repulsed me -lol), yet I would have NO problem showering with them -- ALL EYEZ ON ME -- in a locker room. I personally see it as a form of flattery.
And I agree with you, Jim, on the "all gay men are out for a peep show" stereotype -- it's ridiculous ... ALL MEN are out for a peep show!
[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: Lil J ]
[QB]The whole worry about showering seemed a bit odd to me too. I don't think it's the worry about actual sexual aggression. It's just that guys like Shockey don't want to be 'checked out' while they're in the shower. And there is something legitimate to the point that you shouldn't have to be forced into a situation where you could be viewed in a sexual manner regarldess of whether you're a woman or a man or what your orientation is.
QB]
But that's just it, in the typical NFL locker room setting the possibility of being "viewed in a sexual manner" is unavoidable. As someone here noted earlier -- as did ex-Packer Leroy Butler -- players are aware enough to realize the likelihood that someone on their team is probably gay. I guess the point could be argued that in the homophobes mind, there's a difference between understanding the probability of a teammate being gay and that of removing all doubt. Maybe I'm just too liberal minded on this whole being "checked out" thing. I don't see the big deal. I mean, there are some men that I have known that are, imo, UUUUGLY! And these men were really attracted sexually to me. Now, I in no way found them sexually appealing (some even repulsed me -lol), yet I would have NO problem showering with them -- ALL EYEZ ON ME -- in a locker room. I personally see it as a form of flattery.
And I agree with you, Jim, on the "all gay men are out for a peep show" stereotype -- it's ridiculous ... ALL MEN are out for a peep show!
[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: Lil J ]
It's also possible that some players have experienced what many of us have experienced which is being cruised by some compulsively aggressive ugly ass gay guy in a shower or a locker room. Where they look you up and down in that intrustive, unwelcome and often disgusting way - this is what women experience all the time. If it feels wrong to a gay guy, imagine how it feels for a straight guy. Otherwise, it seems that these athletes are a bit irrational about the showering thing.
And, it's amusing to read yelladog's "expert" opinion on male looks; clearly there's no room for anyone else to differ.
As far as this guy coming out. Great. There's nothing more enlightening and freeing for a gay person than coming out. But, doing it several years after his playing career is over, when he's fully established in his life, when most people he knows and circulates with already know he's gay, definitely limits the impact.
Sure, it's good for sports fans, the media, etc., to understand that there's always been gay players in all sports but they're just always closeted. And it's not like this is some kind of risk by this guy, not at all. Most sports fans aren't going to be too impressed that he played just good enough to get by so as not to attract attention. Whatever. It's hard to fully buy that one. Perhaps his example will show people the extremes that people go to when they're afraid.
Has anyone else heard the ever-present rumor that Johnny Bench was/is gay?
And, it's amusing to read yelladog's "expert" opinion on male looks; clearly there's no room for anyone else to differ.
As far as this guy coming out. Great. There's nothing more enlightening and freeing for a gay person than coming out. But, doing it several years after his playing career is over, when he's fully established in his life, when most people he knows and circulates with already know he's gay, definitely limits the impact.
Sure, it's good for sports fans, the media, etc., to understand that there's always been gay players in all sports but they're just always closeted. And it's not like this is some kind of risk by this guy, not at all. Most sports fans aren't going to be too impressed that he played just good enough to get by so as not to attract attention. Whatever. It's hard to fully buy that one. Perhaps his example will show people the extremes that people go to when they're afraid.
Has anyone else heard the ever-present rumor that Johnny Bench was/is gay?
I have little sympathy for the rape-theory for explaining why some men are afraid to be physically exposed in a communal area with other men who mighttake a sexual interest in them.
As a gay man I am still not comfortable showering with women and I think straight men still associate homosexuality with femininity. The fear, like Sterling Sharpes comments, derives from ignorance - ignorance that has never been corrected by the knowledge that they have always showered, competed, partied, cruised (for women), etc., with gay men. It is the ignorance (and resulting fear) of the unknown, possibly in themselves.
Men prefer action to talk. Talk often cures ignorance, thereby reducing or eliminating fear. That ignorance if not eliminated will generate and perpetuate fear. The fear will lead to hatred and the hatred to violence. Violence is action and many men would prefer moving directly to violence than to bother with the mealy-mouthed messiness of curing the ignorance.
These guys have been taught their entire lives that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural. We, as gay men, all know how much of a mental and spiritual leap it took for most of us to get over those hurdles. It is much more comfortable to sit back in a nice straight world and flow with the homophobic stream than to go against the tide. If you're straight, why bother.
Ultimately straight men have to realize that it is in their interest to eliminate homophobia. Otherwise they wont.
As a gay man I am still not comfortable showering with women and I think straight men still associate homosexuality with femininity. The fear, like Sterling Sharpes comments, derives from ignorance - ignorance that has never been corrected by the knowledge that they have always showered, competed, partied, cruised (for women), etc., with gay men. It is the ignorance (and resulting fear) of the unknown, possibly in themselves.
Men prefer action to talk. Talk often cures ignorance, thereby reducing or eliminating fear. That ignorance if not eliminated will generate and perpetuate fear. The fear will lead to hatred and the hatred to violence. Violence is action and many men would prefer moving directly to violence than to bother with the mealy-mouthed messiness of curing the ignorance.
These guys have been taught their entire lives that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural. We, as gay men, all know how much of a mental and spiritual leap it took for most of us to get over those hurdles. It is much more comfortable to sit back in a nice straight world and flow with the homophobic stream than to go against the tide. If you're straight, why bother.
Ultimately straight men have to realize that it is in their interest to eliminate homophobia. Otherwise they wont.
[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
And, it's amusing to read yelladog's "expert" opinion on male looks; clearly there's no room for anyone else to differ.
I'm going to assume you're being facetious here because nowhere did I ever present my opinion on attractiveness as an "expert" opinion. I do, however, find it ironic that often the ones who publicly judge or make an issue of someone's attractiveness are often the least blessed in the looks department themselves. And yes, I did find Croft's statements tainted in ethnocentrism. Had this coming-out story been about a lesser-known 6'3, 300 pound lineman with very Caucasoid features, I strongly suspect that Croft would not have even compared the guy to a superstar like Piazza. You would have been reading quotes like "quiet bravery" and "unsung hero" and "rugged, manly features". This doesn't make the guy a bigot at all... it just makes him an ethnocentric gay white male. There's nothing purposefully or necessarily heinous or evil about that, but it is negligent and covertly harmful to the collective psyche, so if I see it in print, I'm going to point it out.
Moving on to the NY Times piece, a few initial thoughts:
I'm feeling familiarity, pride, and a bit of envy from this story. Tuaolo's interest in blending in and being inconspicuous for the sake of not being outed is something that I grappled with as a college athlete and campus and political/community activist. I decided to exit one promising career field early (politics) when I learned would face far too much public scrutiny. Although my new career field of choice is something more behind the scenes and far more satisfying for me, I do wonder what I could have accomplished in my former field had I been willing to face the scrutiny (or, far worse, change my lifestyle choices).
I briefly dated a fellow in college who later was drafted and played for years in the pros. He made some personal/professional decisions to try to suppress his desires for men, and like Tuaolo, he chased skirts publicly. This guy even got married and had kids. He actually got busted picking up a male hooker (something they brushed under the rug... incredibly, or should I say suspiciously, it never made the news).
Stories like Tuaolo's are more common than people think. Esera is a hero for coming out, and his story is heart-warming. Whoever suggested that the impact of his heroism is diminished somehow because he waited until his sports career was over is an absolute fool. If Esera saves only one teenage life, or encourages the coming out (or at the very least, the "feeling good" about being gay) of a college or pro athlete, or changes the preconceived notion in one homophobe's mind of what a gay athlete looks like or acts like, then his job is done. Some of you self-centered queens will never be satisfied.
And finally, I was feeling a little envy because I wish that would have been ME at that McDonald's that fateful day instead of his now lover! The lucky bastard!
And who has a wedding at McDonald's anyway?
Footnote: oh yeah, and I don't know what joke about gays and anthropolgists visiting a tribe that Esera may have been referring to that made him well up with tears, but I only know of one joke like that, and it is hardly one to make anyone sad. It's actually funny (in that base idiotic humor way) and not in the least bit homophobic, IMHO. It involves 3 male passengers, a plane crash in the Pacific Ocean, 100 local tribesmen, and Ooonga Boonga.
[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
And, it's amusing to read yelladog's "expert" opinion on male looks; clearly there's no room for anyone else to differ.
I'm going to assume you're being facetious here because nowhere did I ever present my opinion on attractiveness as an "expert" opinion. I do, however, find it ironic that often the ones who publicly judge or make an issue of someone's attractiveness are often the least blessed in the looks department themselves. And yes, I did find Croft's statements tainted in ethnocentrism. Had this coming-out story been about a lesser-known 6'3, 300 pound lineman with very Caucasoid features, I strongly suspect that Croft would not have even compared the guy to a superstar like Piazza. You would have been reading quotes like "quiet bravery" and "unsung hero" and "rugged, manly features". This doesn't make the guy a bigot at all... it just makes him an ethnocentric gay white male. There's nothing purposefully or necessarily heinous or evil about that, but it is negligent and covertly harmful to the collective psyche, so if I see it in print, I'm going to point it out.
Moving on to the NY Times piece, a few initial thoughts:
I'm feeling familiarity, pride, and a bit of envy from this story. Tuaolo's interest in blending in and being inconspicuous for the sake of not being outed is something that I grappled with as a college athlete and campus and political/community activist. I decided to exit one promising career field early (politics) when I learned would face far too much public scrutiny. Although my new career field of choice is something more behind the scenes and far more satisfying for me, I do wonder what I could have accomplished in my former field had I been willing to face the scrutiny (or, far worse, change my lifestyle choices).
I briefly dated a fellow in college who later was drafted and played for years in the pros. He made some personal/professional decisions to try to suppress his desires for men, and like Tuaolo, he chased skirts publicly. This guy even got married and had kids. He actually got busted picking up a male hooker (something they brushed under the rug... incredibly, or should I say suspiciously, it never made the news).
Stories like Tuaolo's are more common than people think. Esera is a hero for coming out, and his story is heart-warming. Whoever suggested that the impact of his heroism is diminished somehow because he waited until his sports career was over is an absolute fool. If Esera saves only one teenage life, or encourages the coming out (or at the very least, the "feeling good" about being gay) of a college or pro athlete, or changes the preconceived notion in one homophobe's mind of what a gay athlete looks like or acts like, then his job is done. Some of you self-centered queens will never be satisfied.
And finally, I was feeling a little envy because I wish that would have been ME at that McDonald's that fateful day instead of his now lover! The lucky bastard!
And who has a wedding at McDonald's anyway?
Footnote: oh yeah, and I don't know what joke about gays and anthropolgists visiting a tribe that Esera may have been referring to that made him well up with tears, but I only know of one joke like that, and it is hardly one to make anyone sad. It's actually funny (in that base idiotic humor way) and not in the least bit homophobic, IMHO. It involves 3 male passengers, a plane crash in the Pacific Ocean, 100 local tribesmen, and Ooonga Boonga.
[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
I'm going to assume you're being facetious here because nowhere did I ever present my opinion on attractiveness as an "expert" opinion. I do, however, find it ironic that often the ones who publicly judge or make an issue of someone's attractiveness are often the least blessed in the looks department themselves. And yes, I did find Croft's statements tainted in ethnocentrism. Had this coming-out story been about a lesser-known 6'3, 300 pound lineman with very Caucasoid features, I strongly suspect that Croft would not have even compared the guy to a superstar like Piazza. You would have been reading quotes like "quiet bravery" and "unsung hero" and "rugged, manly features". This doesn't make the guy a bigot at all... it just makes him an ethnocentric gay white male. There's nothing purposefully or necessarily heinous or evil about that, but it is negligent and covertly harmful to the collective psyche, so if I see it in print, I'm going to point it out.
(in my best Ronald Reagan voice) There you go again. You seem to find some racial element in everything. How sad.
I'm going to assume you're being facetious here because nowhere did I ever present my opinion on attractiveness as an "expert" opinion. I do, however, find it ironic that often the ones who publicly judge or make an issue of someone's attractiveness are often the least blessed in the looks department themselves. And yes, I did find Croft's statements tainted in ethnocentrism. Had this coming-out story been about a lesser-known 6'3, 300 pound lineman with very Caucasoid features, I strongly suspect that Croft would not have even compared the guy to a superstar like Piazza. You would have been reading quotes like "quiet bravery" and "unsung hero" and "rugged, manly features". This doesn't make the guy a bigot at all... it just makes him an ethnocentric gay white male. There's nothing purposefully or necessarily heinous or evil about that, but it is negligent and covertly harmful to the collective psyche, so if I see it in print, I'm going to point it out.
(in my best Ronald Reagan voice) There you go again. You seem to find some racial element in everything. How sad.
[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
(in my best Ronald Reagan voice) There you go again. You seem to find some racial element in everything. How sad.
Quite appropriate that you would speak in a Ronald Reagan voice. I actually would expect that of you.
(in my best Ronald Reagan voice) There you go again. You seem to find some racial element in everything. How sad.
Quite appropriate that you would speak in a Ronald Reagan voice. I actually would expect that of you.
Yelladog - Believe it or not, people disagree with you and their opinions are equally valid. And your "self-centered queens" jibe is the definitive pot calling the kettle black. I do think you're always funny though, in that poorly dressed, waaaaay downtown drag queen sort of way.
I was the "fool" who believes this coming out story is somewhat anti-climatic due to the timing. And while it adds favorably to the dialogue, I doubt his story of not playing up to his potential and waiting until so many years later will save many teenagers. Of course, I hope that it does, but the whole point of this ongoing discussion about athletes coming out is strongly fueled by the awareness that it'll take a major athlete still somewhere near his/her prime to have the kind of impact that might be culture-changing. I applaud this guy for coming out nationally but we could always use someone actually willing to take a risk a little earlier in their career. Now that would benefit many young lives.
I was the "fool" who believes this coming out story is somewhat anti-climatic due to the timing. And while it adds favorably to the dialogue, I doubt his story of not playing up to his potential and waiting until so many years later will save many teenagers. Of course, I hope that it does, but the whole point of this ongoing discussion about athletes coming out is strongly fueled by the awareness that it'll take a major athlete still somewhere near his/her prime to have the kind of impact that might be culture-changing. I applaud this guy for coming out nationally but we could always use someone actually willing to take a risk a little earlier in their career. Now that would benefit many young lives.
[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
I have little sympathy for the rape-theory for explaining why some men are afraid to be physically exposed in a communal area with other men who mighttake a sexual interest in them.
As a gay man I am still not comfortable showering with women and I think straight men still associate homosexuality with femininity. The fear, like Sterling Sharpes comments, derives from ignorance -
[snipped] it's in their interest to eliminate homophobia. Otherwise they wont.
I totally agree about igorance and homophobia. Also, as Arthur Dong's documentary of several years ago demonstrated, many of the most violent homophobes, when subjected to a penile stimulation test, were sexually aroused by homoerotic images--their homophobia thus is based in part on fear--of their own desires.
Isn't there a psychological term or theory called "homosexual panic" or "gay panic" that discusses the irrational fear of being the object of homosexual attention/desire/gazes and thus wanting to participate in a homosexual act? It's been used in several notorious defenses over the years. But if you're not homosexual and not interested in the least in homosexual sex, why would you worry about being drawn into or seduced into homosexual activities of any sort?
BTW, as a gay man why do you have a problem showering with straight women? They wouldn't bother you--and vice versa. Would you feel more comfortable around lesbians?
I have little sympathy for the rape-theory for explaining why some men are afraid to be physically exposed in a communal area with other men who mighttake a sexual interest in them.
As a gay man I am still not comfortable showering with women and I think straight men still associate homosexuality with femininity. The fear, like Sterling Sharpes comments, derives from ignorance -
[snipped] it's in their interest to eliminate homophobia. Otherwise they wont.
I totally agree about igorance and homophobia. Also, as Arthur Dong's documentary of several years ago demonstrated, many of the most violent homophobes, when subjected to a penile stimulation test, were sexually aroused by homoerotic images--their homophobia thus is based in part on fear--of their own desires.
Isn't there a psychological term or theory called "homosexual panic" or "gay panic" that discusses the irrational fear of being the object of homosexual attention/desire/gazes and thus wanting to participate in a homosexual act? It's been used in several notorious defenses over the years. But if you're not homosexual and not interested in the least in homosexual sex, why would you worry about being drawn into or seduced into homosexual activities of any sort?
BTW, as a gay man why do you have a problem showering with straight women? They wouldn't bother you--and vice versa. Would you feel more comfortable around lesbians?
Also, Sportinlife, don't forget that two other pro-football players, Dave Kopay and Roy Simmons, did come out after ending their careers. Tuaolo's coming out is another wonderful step in that it shows that men of all backgrounds, races, etc., can take this step, difficult as it is.
[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
BTW, as a gay man why do you have a problem showering with straight women? They wouldn't bother you--and vice versa. Would you feel more comfortable around lesbians?
Did a double take for a minute there fantomas, but rereading my original post I did say "women" not "straight women." Call me shy or conservative (did I say that? ) or just plain boring, but I would feel odd showering with women in an athletic environment because I've never done it before. I don't have any philosophical or moral inhibitions about it. If I, and all other men, had to do it I'm sure I'd lose that inhibition almost immediately.
My point was to explain why most straight men are uncomfortable showering with openly gay men. It's similar to showering with an unappealing woman who they, in their vanity, believe has got to be interested in them sexually. Personally I'd be flattered if a woman I was showering with found me attractive, but I would get annoyed quick if I thought she were making a pass at me knowing that I was not interested in her or any other woman.
BTW yelladawg, I think you've made some invaluable contributions to the discussions on the board. I too was not surprised to learn that Tuaolo avoided notoriety by holding back in his performance on the field.
BTW, as a gay man why do you have a problem showering with straight women? They wouldn't bother you--and vice versa. Would you feel more comfortable around lesbians?
Did a double take for a minute there fantomas, but rereading my original post I did say "women" not "straight women." Call me shy or conservative (did I say that? ) or just plain boring, but I would feel odd showering with women in an athletic environment because I've never done it before. I don't have any philosophical or moral inhibitions about it. If I, and all other men, had to do it I'm sure I'd lose that inhibition almost immediately.
My point was to explain why most straight men are uncomfortable showering with openly gay men. It's similar to showering with an unappealing woman who they, in their vanity, believe has got to be interested in them sexually. Personally I'd be flattered if a woman I was showering with found me attractive, but I would get annoyed quick if I thought she were making a pass at me knowing that I was not interested in her or any other woman.
BTW yelladawg, I think you've made some invaluable contributions to the discussions on the board. I too was not surprised to learn that Tuaolo avoided notoriety by holding back in his performance on the field.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.