Just got a flash they're having a feature (whole show / or only part) on "Gays in Sports" on Donahue later today (Wednesday, 12/5).

Here on the West Coast, its on at 5pm, and repeats later (I believe) at 8pm.

Will try to tape it, and report if anything new/significant is mentioned.

I just saw it, and it was very good. Tuaolo was on, along with Dave Kopay, some idiot conservative named Robert McKnight who basically expressed his ultra conservative judeao christian biblical beliefs ( gag me with a spoon!), some guy who writes for the N.Y. Times, and another author of a book called "Jocks too, coming out to play". In addition Bobby Valentine was on. Tuaolo showed a picture of his partner, and kids, good looking partner and cute kids!

They focused primarily on football, and to a lesser extent, baseball, where Mr. Valentine said again, he believes baseball could handle an out player, where it seems like football would be tougher, let alone, my sport, hockey...
They did say they thought there was a double standard in sports when it comes to out female gay atheletes, vs. out male atheletes..

The interview with the kid who was outed for being gay on his high school football team was interesting. The guy tried to commit suicide twice.

The idiot conservative guy chimed in with a totally tasteless comment halfway through about his opinion of male gays wanting to molest boys. Donahue got him good though..and he had other gibberish about the fact that supposedly gay males live 7-20 years less than their straight counterparts, and the "lifestyle" is more dangerous than cigarette smoking.

Interesting show. I would recommend it to anyone interested. Unfortunately they didn't mention outsports.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

The NY Times writer was the exceptional Robert Lipsyte.
The teen football player was Greg Congdon, whose story was featured on Outsports.

Kopay, Woog and Esera were all good. I was especially impressed with Valentine, who simply stated that gays in a baseball clubhouse would work.

Right Jim, they were all very good. I especially enjoyed seeing Greg Congdon, looking relaxed and healthy after escaping high school hell.

The benighted Robert Knight was the very image of beady-eyed, tight-lipped, self-righteous condemnation. I'd never seen him "live" before; he's everything I'd hoped, and more. Talk about your stereotype -- Honey puh-leeze! Get over yourself! At one point Donohue yelled at him and told him to hush up. Scary man.

Other than "that one", the straight guys were great -- Valentine sunny and supportive, Lipsyte perceptive and clear-thinking, Donahue the epitome of the huggy heterosexual.

Kopay and Tuaolo, my heroes. Thank you, men.

More monumental than my "coming out" is what I'm about to say next: I have a newly found respect for Bobby Valentine! (Oh no--I hope my screen name doesn't get revoked!)

Seriously, though. I have always viewed Valentine as a somewhat egotistical kind of guy, especially with all those crazy facial expressions and the pacing in the dugout. However, his extremely enlightened views about this issue, though maybe a little optimistic, were presented very intelligently and articulately. (Jeez, now I need another six months of therapy...)

Hi, I wrote about this in Jock Talk and included the best comments by Valentine.

I saw the replay on MSNBC (fortunately I taped it) and this show was ABSOLUTELY AWESOME! I especially enjoyed Donahue having a strong rebuttal to every assinine statement that Robert Knight had to say....even the comments and questions from the members of the audience were overwhelmingly supportive (with the sole exception of the very first question from the woman who wanted to know how Esera's kids would feel being raised without a "maternal parent" -- Tuaolo's response referring to his supportive in-laws, mother, and sister was PERFECT) -- hell, the audience even booed and hissed a couple of times when Knight tried to correlate gays with child molestations (Donahue got him GOOD then and really put Knight in his place).

As for the guests, Bobby Valentine was GREAT (this just served to reinforce why I've always been such a BIG fan of Bobby V) as was Robert Lipsyte and especially Greg Congdon....I'm proud that Greg is an Outsporter (hope he posts here again real soon) -- that young man has more courage and strength than a stadium full of his straight classmates.

The two segments that stood out the most for me and made me proudest (among many) were when Greg talked about the dozens and dozens of e-mails he had received both supporting him (which immediately made me think of Outsports) and from many young men in similar situations asking for his help -- I immediately thought that is why Greg didn't die in either of his two suicide attempts (thankfully) because of all the young men he can (and undoubtedly already has) helped by sharing his experiences and perhaps saving their life....the other "small" statement that hit me was at the very end of the program when Esera mentioned that the reason he initially came out was for his kids and his family but NOW he has come to realize that it was for a much larger reason -- for guys like Greg Congdon who NEED to see and hear men like Esera Tuaolo as role models and true heros in their life.

Thanks for the link, Jim and Cyd....I wouldn't have known about this show if not for Outsports bringing it to our attention....KUDOS to the entire panel (including Donahue who made that idiot Knight look like the homophobic idiot that he is) for a job well done!

The one thing that I found perplexing was why was that bumbling, wimpy, homophobic dork Robert Knight even talking about gays in professional sports? The man clearly cannot even dribble a ball, and was always the last to be picked for even a dodge ball team in an elementary school PE class. The last time he saw the inside of a gym locker room was in the seventh grade when the geek showered in his underwear for fear of his scrawny body being ridiculed. I seriously doubt he can speak with any expertise on the dynamics of male sexuality in team athletics. They could have at least picked a homophobe who looked the part of a jock or sports fan.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]

Close call on almost missing Donahue tonite. I got taken by "Taken" and totally forgot about it until I checked my sites, of which OS is always on top , and saw the thread. When I switched over to MSNBC at midnite, what was on but ... the 700 Club! AAARRRGGGH! Not to worry, SF's messed up cable actually helped this time and I caught the show on one of the many duplicate channels that block out other things we NEED here, like WGN.

Anyway, my take: Esera looked and sounded great, during the few times Kopay and Donahue would actually let him speak his piece. He kept trying to sock it to the obviously angry and repressive Robert Knight, but had the wind sucked out of his sails and I don't think he ever got to make the zinger he was planning to.

Knight was just a total bigot, from his ridiculous "please do," when Donahue quipped he might have to stand between him and Esera, to his lockstep Bible thumping and Jesus talking that we've all heard before. (No wonder Catholic priests are so able to charm their way into kids' pants; they never resort to that mindless church camp rant!) In fact, maybe it's Hannukah, but all his ridiculous rattling about Jesus made me understand just how alienated Jews must sometimes feel whenever Christocentrics like him talk about embracing Christ as a cure-all. (And I'm a Catholic!)

I thought Bobby Valentine was the most articulate, and handsome, of the lot, and I liked his energy. The NYT columnist and the author of "Jocks, Too" were intelligent men and had some god facts and stories to add to the mix. And the kid in the audience held his own and actually shut the idiot Knight up when he noted that there is no incompatibility between being gay and loving Jesus. Good for you, young-un!

But behind it all, the best intentions notwithstanding, was the format. The only time I see shows like "Donahue" are when I'm home sick, passing in and out of sleep on the couch, and channel surfing while awake. They're just too unstructured for me, with too many tangents and loose ends. Give me oral argument in a courtroom anyday - much more entertaining and it actually makes a difference! The fairness is also lacking and while I cannot condemn Knight too strongly, I can see where his adherents would claim that he was ignored, ridiculed or treated unfairly. Just one problem with those arguments, though: he deserves to be!

And so to bed.

Guess I was watching a different show than you guys. I was not impressed with Esera. Although I am totally proud of his coming out, his comments and answers were vague, at best. If he is going to go on panels to discuss gay life in general, he needs to be better prepared. Maybe I was waiting for a slam-dunk-take-that-you-idiot type of comment, but I just didn't see much of it... Just my take on it.

Agreed on Valentine...never seen him look better!! And the guy that made the most sense was the NY reporter.

Does anyone know when (if?) this will be replayed? I had previous commitments and forgot to tape it!

The transcript is online, but there's no reference to video copies. Donahue doesn't repeat a show after the day of broadcast, I don't think.

The only thing that would have made the show complete in covering gays in sports would to have had Cyd and Jim from Outsports on the panel.

I absolutely hate it that whenever you have a gay topic on a talk show there's always someone from the Family Research Council or some other similar organization.

If gravity was the topic of a talk show there wouldn't be someone on from the anti-gravity side.

agreed Pcc, but they must appear to be "fair", so they get idiots like McNight on their with their same old tired ass boring shit about the bible, to "balance" the show. But Donahue on more than one occasion, him being a real supporter of gays that he is, let that guy have it, especially when he started to drift into the gays want to molest little boys stuff. Now I know why I have always loved Phil.

[quote]Originally posted by Jim at Outsports:
Hi, I wrote about this in Jock Talk and included the best comments by Valentine.

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Great recap, by the way!

After reading the transcript, I was more impressed than ever by Greg Congdon's courage. Way to go dude!

As for Knight ... after reading the transcript, I'd say he embarrassed himself completely in the eyes of anyone other than people who already think the way he does (and their minds are so closed anyway that nothing can get through ... I've dealt with my share, and it's worse than talking to a brick wall, because at least brick walls don't talk back).

That Knight guy was a total fool, at one point he said the majority of Americans feel the way he does. Judging for the noise in the audience that the statement generated, that is simply untrue. Its amazing how much things have changed, and thanks to people like Tuaolo for that. I only saw half of the show, but would have like to of heard more from Esera, at one point Kopay chimed in after Donohue finished a statement and was waiting for Esera to answer. His final statement about doing this for others was really powerful. The camera focused on his grin when Knight said that homosexuality is "cureable". Thankfully I'm gay.

I totally agree about the Knight guy (his comments were utterly ridiculous, and it appeared as though most in the audience agreed), but you needed him there in the interest of fairness.

As far as the show in general goes, I didn't think it was anything special. Everything that was said has been said a million times before. No new ground broken. Esera wasn't that articulate, but I think that as he becomes more comfortable with being interviewed, he'll become a much better spokesman for the issue.

I was glad, however, to hear Bobby Valentine's comments. I wish more athletes/coaches/managers had Valentine's attitude.

I think it's pretty important that we listen to Knight's buzzwords. Not that we have to counter them - clearly in most situations it makes sense to ignore them - however, as anti-gay rhetoric changes, we have to be ready to defend ourselves when the situation arises.

How do you respond when someone says homosexuality is more deadly than smoking? Or that the human body is not built for that kind of punishment (interesting - and telling - word choice there). Esera was great when responding to Knight's "worried about the children" pabulum - he said he came out exactly because he was worried about the children. But however well that plays on Donohue, it may not be so effective on another platform.

It was also a little jarring to hear Kopay immediately attack Knight as a Bible thumper even though Knight didn't bring up morality. The FRC is clearly a religious organization, but they're careful about couching their sin-talk with medical and ethical talk. My hope is that gay advocates have the tools - whether they need to use them in a given setting - to tear apart these newer arguments.

Kudos to CowboysHskrFan and Bridgeportjake for their unbiased takes on the Donahue segment. I for one was happy to see the subject addressed on the national program, however felt under whelmed by the representation of the panel (which did outnumber Knight 5-1) on the “pro-gay” side of the issue.

Please let this take nothing away from Tuaolo and Kopay, both whom I admire a great deal for their strength and courage. However, I did not feel that either were polished or prepared enough to consistently articulate their argument in a convincing manner.
Even though I don’t agree with his rhetoric, you have to admit that Knight was well prepared with his arguments. It was also quite clear that Knight was not given a fair opportunity to present his case. He was often ignored or cut off in mid sentence. In my mind, this only minimizes the objectiveness of the program. This in no way was a fair debate of the issue. Besides, I say – let the man talk. It seemed to me that the more he spoke, the deeper a hole he dug for himself with his asinine statements.

On a positive note, I was quite impressed with both Valentine and Lipsyte. Both presented themselves well and I felt their statements were well articulated. Obviously both are seasoned veterans in their professions and have much more experience when it comes to media exposure. With time and effort, I'm sure Tuaolo and Kopay can get there as well.

I agree that there is a desperate need for role models and activists within gay society, sports figures included. My heartfelt thanks go out to Tuaolo and Kopay. I hope they continue their commitment to the cause. If Tuaolo’s final and touching comment on the show is any indication, I’m sure he will.

My main thought after reading the transcript was that Donahue is the same crappy interviewer that he has always been. It's easier to pass a gay marriage bill in congress than it is to get a complete thought presented when Phil keeps interrupting you every 2 seconds. The man does not allow people on his show to speak. He is constantly chimming in with "yes.." "Yes" "yes" "OH" and such. It's no wonder that most of these people don't sound all that articulate. It's hard to be articlulate when.....

"yes?"

You keep.

"yes"

Getting.

"oh"

Interrupted.

Just my thoughts. But again, I thought that Greg and Esura and Kopay and Valentine all did very well, and I'm glad that it was presented on a nation wide platform.

Judging from the transcript, no one got a chance to finish a thought. Obviously the show was primarily entertainmnet with a limited amount of time, resulting in "soundbite journalism".

As a result most people probably come away holding the same view they had going into it.

More time would allow for the stronger arguement (IMO, the one in favor of a gay pro athlete coming out) to prevail over the weaker one and allow people to change their views.

I agree that Esera Tuaolo and Greg Congdon could become better spokespersons with time, especially Congdon if he chooses to, because they both seem to speak from the heart and have compelling, if somewhat different, stories.

Congdon's comeback to Knight in which he [Congdon] essentially demanded the right to be both a person of faith and a gay man was emblematic of the internal conflict that most athletes will have to deal with, and the courage it will take to resolve it.

I really enjoyed the program, although I watched a lot of it close captioned and muted because I was on the phone with my boyfriend (who couldn't stand Knight and had to stop watching).

I really don't think Knight needed to be on the program, and I hate the way the media (so they don't look "liberal" and "biased") insist on having a representative of some anti-gay hate group on a program like that. Does anyone expect to see the Klan on every program where African-American issues are being discussed?

As for countering Knight's arguments, the best defense is to call him on them - they're lies, plain and simple. These groups have a field day deliberately mis-stating the results of research, mis-interpreting others' research, and just making things up.

For instance - the epidemilogic data on gay men. We do have a shorter lifespan, for 2 main reasons - AIDS and smoking (the smoking rate among gay men is horrific). If you eliminate those two things, there are no real differences in life expectancy.

The child molestation thing - a made up statistic by the Far Right - they basically take two disparate pieces of information (in this case the % of men who admit to being gay in government surveys and the % of boys who are victims of sexual molestation) and create a causal link between them (that ALL boys who are molested are molested by someone who is in the % of gay men). They conveniently ignore little facts, like the 75% of molesters who are the husbands or boyfriends of the child's mother.

It is this type of continual lying that should get these groups booted from serious discussions of social issues - but even Donohue doesn't have the guts to do it.

Finally, I was amazed at the way Knight kept focussing on a specific, "unnatural" sexual act that gay men do together. Does he not realize that a) we're gay all the time, not just when we're having anal sex, straight people have anal sex all the time, and the risk of damage is the same - in fact anal sex is one of the methods "abstinent" teenagers act sexually so they can maintain their "technical" virginity and c) a lot of gay men don't like anal sex, don't participate in it, and you can be really gay without that sexual act? Or he is really just a closet queen who can't stand his own desires?

I was thrilled that he came off as narrow-minded and off-base as he did, and LOVED it when the crown clearly did not agree that a majority of Americans agreed with him. It was like seeing Hester Pryne's neighbor in 21st century America.

CPT, that was an absolutely terrific analysis, with one good point after another. One quibble: it isn't convincing to say gay men's life expectancy would be the same if you factor out AIDS (and smoking). The whole "point" of the homophobe is that homosexuality is dangerous because of AIDS. Of course, that's using the bad judgment of the few (I hope!) who engage in risky sex to tar millions who don't.

I disagree with the "balance" issue: I trust Donauhue's judgement with this, and let's face it - we live the reverse the rest of our lives!

That was ONE show of the hundreds that he will tape in his (welcome, IMHO) comeback.

He's great guy that has done a lot for television and for people from all walks of life.

NB: He's one of the few with his following with the balls to do a show on anti-gay sentiment. This is phenomenal when you realize that just about every segment of EVERY talk show has an LGBT component (just because we are human, too) - but we never, ever get to show up as who we are.

This is a criticism that I think you could still make of Oprah (and she close to flawless in my eyes); nevertheless, society is still too volatile for a more even showing on human life.

What a shame.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I saw the show in its entirety the other night (just in time too, because I had just got home from work), and it was great! It was my first time seeing Greg Congdon and I gained even more respect for him after seeing and hearing him on the show. I can't even imagine what it must have been like for him to experience coming out in high school. He looked very relaxed and confident in himself, which to me is more important than anything.

I sounded out the idiot who was teleconferenced in, while the other guest speakers were there live!! They always say that people who are racist, discriminatory, or prejudiced against other groups say the dumbest things, and he said nothing but dumb things. I also liked what Esera and Bobby Valentine had to say! It was especially enlightening to hear Valentine say that he thought that a gay player would work, with understanding, in today's baseball as compared to other sports.

Overall, it was a show that was well presented and much needed. Our society is great and unique, mainly, because of its diversity and acceptance of others. Discrimination, prejudice, and racism come from ignorance, lack of knowledge, and acceptance of others who are different than yourself.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: SmoothRon ]

[quote] One quibble: it isn't convincing to say gay men's life expectancy would be the same if you factor out AIDS (and smoking). The whole "point" of the homophobe is that homosexuality is dangerous because of AIDS. Of course, that's using the bad judgment of the few (I hope!) who engage in risky sex to tar millions who don't.

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Quentinc - you are completely correct in this assessment. Religious extremists do like to link the supposed "dangerousness" of homosexuality with getting AIDS. They miss a huge point, however, as the vast majority of AIDS cases worldwide are caused by heterosexual contact. I highly doubt these same religious extremists would argue for laws banning straight sex (after all, we can continue the population with much safe in vitro fertilization).

It all goes back to Knight's comments about and obsession with anal sex. Not only do religious extremists emphasize the "sex" in homosexual, they equate male homosexuality with one specific type of sex. The response to this argument is simply to point out that the act is not specific to gay men, and that there are plenty of "hot, safe" ways to have sex between men without that specific behavior (paraphrasing the movie "Jeffrey" here). Any discussion of male/male sex will likely freak out your basic religious extremist, so you can make a point and ruin their day at the same time.

Perhaps Donahue chose such an extremist because he (PD) is seen as, and doesn't deny being, such an avowed liberal. He tends to be fair, but this has been a tag he's carried throughout his previous TV incarnations.

I would have liked to see a pro athlete or former pro who was willing to argue the opposing view as opposed to a wacko like Knight. Perhaps there are few who would risk the opprobrium they'd encounter if they came on and said, "Oh, I don't like gay people, etc." but more than a few HAVE made such statements in the past, and among retired athletes, I suppose, there must be a few who'd be willing to come forward. What about Congressman Jim Ryun, the former track star, who I believe (though I could be wrong) came out against having gay "Big Brothers"?

[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
Perhaps Donahue chose such an extremist because he (PD) is seen as, and doesn't deny being, such an avowed liberal. He tends to be fair, but this has been a tag he's carried throughout his previous TV incarnations.

---

Or maybe he meant to show the other side in a negative light (not that it's a difficult thing to do). It's been done (not necessarily by him).

Still, someone with a sports or athletic background, rather than a strictly political or religious one, would have at least had more basis for being in the discussion. The subject was sports, after all.