Hi Outsports guys and gals

reading the thread for the frustrated coach made me realize that there may be a critical mass for a book idea that i have been wanting to do for some time. it would be focused on (for lack of a better word) "normal" gay guys who are practically invisible in our society. i live in atlanta and when i go out, i see the "cha cha" crowd but i never seem to meet alot of the gay guys out there in suburbia who mow lawns, watch football, etc. i would be interested in talking with these "invisible" gays that have not adopted the stereotypical gay lifestyle and must outnumber the visible gay crowd by at least 10 times.
what got me particularly interested in this is that i play rugby for a gay team here in atlanta and i handle recruiting. i know there are tons of gay guys out there who are sports centered and might be good additions to the rugby team.....but how do you find them? this had led to some discussions on the team about where to find these guys.
well talking about it over the course of the past year has actually gotten me very curious about this.

i think that this idea could make for a very interesting book and narrative.

until i started reading the frustrated coach discussion board, i did not think of outsports as a resource for this. but it would seem that outsports is a perfect resource.

my own background is that i have a PhD in molecular genetics and presently work as a researcher in the genetics behind gene creation and evolution. i am a total geek. but i have always been interested in genetics of behavior i think that we are at an interesting time in our society where stereotypically male gay guys are coming out and i am curious how they integrate their gay life into their largely heterosexual surroundings.

please let me know if you would like to contribute. and talk with your friends and see if they might be interested in telling their point of view. i am thinking that if people don't like to write, then i could talk with them and then do the writing based upon the interviews...i think that can be handled individual to individual.

my name is matt and my internet e-mail is macampbell1972@yahoo.com.
thanks guys and gals!

That describes many of us who live outside the "gay ghettos" (especially those in NY and SF), so I think it's a topic well worth exploring.

A bit of an aside but ... Pete Jones, the (straight, married) director of the indie film Outing Riley (currently looking for a distributor) said he made the film partly because the gay men he knew in Chicago were "beer-drinking, sports-loving guys" who resembled his other male friends far more than they resembled media stereotypes of gay men, and he wanted to portray that (along with the "monkey wrench" that coming out in midlife would throw into the dynamics of a close-knit extended family like his ... basically, in the movie, the lead character comes out, and his brothers don't believe him at first).

Anyway, PM me if you want to continue this discussion offline.

[ November 01, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: danimal ]

I'd be interested...Although we have many gay friends, I often find myself with more straight male friends, because of more shared interests...

I've always felt like one of the "invisible" gay men. Living in San Francisco I don't really identify with the Castro crowd. If you're not a buffed gym rat you don't fit in, and I'm built like the Skipper from Gilligan's Island. I don't go to the clubs cause I don't like the music, (Where can I find a gay Jazz/Blues bar?), plus I dance like a three-legged rhino LOL!

I spend my free time hanging with my friends, playing pool, and watching the Giants and 49ers.

A book like this is a great idea, and whenever "Outing Riley" hits the theaters - I'll be first in line.

I would be interested in contributing.
PM me or email me at david@ohgayhockey.org

There is a sociologist (I think out of Rutgers) who has done extensive studies of suburban gay couples...those who do not live in cities or in any "gay mecca" at all...of course my quick search for his book in my office has turned up nothing (we're in the process of moving, so I can find NOTHING...) But when I do find it I will let you know. I always find the topic fascinating - after all, how do we gay guys, gals, and couples in non-urban areas cope, let alone survive? (Or as my older, very Chrisitan, Bush-sigh toting neighbors told us, "Oh, we like the gays. They decorate so nicely." And my husband actually DOES decorate nicely, so, it is good to know that his ability to match colors and coordinate have saved us from hateful glares and bricks through the windows. wink

Oh, God. I should be able to remember his name because I knew him when I went to Rutgers. We lived in the same residence. I can't place it right now, though.

[quote]danimal:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by atlrugger:
[qb] basically, in the movie, the lead character comes out, and his brothers don't believe him at first).
[/quote]I have a couple of funny stories about that. On two different occasions when I came out to a friend, the friend broke into laughter convinced that I was joking. In this first occasion we were both drunk and I just said, "oh there's something I've been meaning to tell you. I'm gay." When he started laughing I found myself laughing as well while I was saying but its true. This only me him laugh harder. The thought that I couldn’t convince while I was laughing made me laugh even harder. We nearly collapsed on the floor in laughter.

He had a hard time dealing with it but we remained friends. Then he kept saying we should have sex because he wanted to see what M2M sex was like. So we fooled around a bit. Then he and a friend of mine fell in love and had a five-year relationship.

The second friend was an adorable former English rugby player. One day he claimed he could always tell when a guy is gay. I let it pass. But when he repeated the statement I said “I’ve heard you say that before, so did you figure out that I’m gay.” This made him break into laughter and the scenario repeated itself. When I finally convinced him I was telling the truth he said, “Gee, I hope I didn’t say anything in the past that may have offended you.” We stayed friends and this one, stayed straight. (shucks)

I have thousands of personal stories involving confessions of happily married men, curious straight guys and the like. I’ve met guys who really prefer women but get into a little m2m adventure. There is the other side; single women believing you are eligible bachelors, which many of my gay friends have had to face as well.

The guys I’ve met span the globe and include many different racial and ethnic backgrounds. I have thought about writing a book on my own personal experience but I’m conflicted about sharing my private life with the public. After all, I live in a country that is shocked to see a distant shot of Janet Jackson’s tit with a pasty on it. Even other gay men may decide I’m too much of a libertine. But I don’t see it that way. Not all of these confessions led to sex, and when it did it was quite playful. I see it, as another means of male bonding.

[ November 15, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Thom ]

Three cheers for male-bonding, but I'm glad I missed Janet's pasty malfunction. That one has been far to worked over...so to speak.

Sorry, but I have not been able to find that book - it's a manuscript, actually, I'm not sure if the book was ever published. I may have loaned it to a student who...well, I may not ever get that back. BUT I do know someone I can ask about it, and I will when we all return from Thanksgiving break (who checks their e-mail over break?)

I do think it is an interesting idea...but what kind of book would it be, exactly? A study, a compilation, essays, biogrpahies...etc.

I had a very interesting thought about this subject the other day when I looked at "who’s online" at gay.com. Most people seem to believe that cities like NY and SF have a higher percentage of homosexuals. I would agree they have a higher openly gay population but I’m not sure if the number of gays per capita is any different then the rest of the country if we are allowed to overlap all bi/gay/ and curious men in the same bucket.

Check out who’s online at gay.com. The list shows how many people are online under a plethora of US cities. I don’t know exactly how it is done, but my guess is that gay.com chooses a certain radius around a given city and by so doing is capturing more or less the MSA. So for example, right now there are 179 people listed online in Chapel Hill (population 50,000), 182 in Raleigh (population 600,000) and Durham(population 250000) is not listed. Clearly they have included much of RDU in the Chapel Hill listing. The MSA population of RDU is 1.2 million. There are currently 728 online in NY. Now NY MSA population can be anywhere from 7 to 20 million depending on how large a circle you draw but it appears there is a higher percentage online in RDU than NY. SF has 383 online and an MSA of about 7 million again RDU trumps.

Let’s check out smaller towns. Asheville (48 online), Portland Me (30 online) and Charleston SC (44) all have MSA at about a quarter that of RDU. Bangor Me has nine people on line and an MSA of about 150,000 or about half the former.

I estimate the per capita rate of RDU at 3 times SF and 1.5 NY but admittedly I don’t have the populations of the exact areas gay.com is using. Now RDU is nowhere near has happening as either SF or NY so one could argue that a lot more gay men stay at home a go online. But if SF and NY have a far higher percent of homosexuals, wouldn’t you think it would at least be even? Moreover with 112 people online in Oklahoma city, 80 in Knoxville, 28 in Cedar Rapids, and 4 in Cheyenne Wyoming (MSA 75,000), I’m convinced that homos are all over the map and not just in the gay ghettos.

[ November 23, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Thom ]

Agreed ... although the ones in rural areas may be more likely to go online (if they have net access, but that's becoming more common) because they have fewer ways to meet (even just for friendly socializing) in person.

Historically, many gays and lesbians moved to larger cities to escape hostility and isolation in their hometowns. That probably happens less now, and those in urban areas are more visible, but I suspect that there's still some concentration in metro areas. Besides, rural areas have fewer people period. It's a mixed bag.

I like your book idea, mostly because I can relate. I recently came out to some friends and some family a year ago, and am still informing family members and friends. I met an amazing man several months ago, and things with us have been great. We met online because I dont like the smokey bars or scene here in Seattle. I also hate dancing, unless its to live music (which you wont find in a gay bar).

Because my overall life interests, activities, and friends were well established before coming out, my sexuality is part of who I am, but not my whole identity, no more than my religion, or activities. I am a strongly independent individual, never feeling good identifying myself with any one group, except "good hearted friendly persons". Even as an avid runner and hockey player, I dont let these activities and those I know from them dominate my life as an identity. PLease feel free to contact me if you might want a contribution.

hey guys

sorry for the radio silence...i acutally received and took a job offer up in DC right after i posted the request for contributors. so i am busy with job stuff and moving (ugh!). i am moving in early january so i will be set up by mid january in DC. thanks for the responses and i am still trying to figure out what a good number of participants might be? i am thinking about 15 with a 10 page or so narrative for each with a forward, introduction and final thoughts chapter.
i'll be in contact with you guys personally this week who are interested (again i am sorry for the lag in getting back to all!) and i would like to know if you might have some buddies that might want to share their story if they fit into the "invisible" gay group...i have to find a better term for purposes of classification. any better terms/phrases/etc are welcome.
thanks
matt