Okay, here it goes.
I have various 'beefs' with professional sports figures and the professional sport industry in general, but concerning closeted professional sports figures I now have no tolerance. I understand that they feel that coming out publicly might end their career, but when you've got a nine million dollar contract, I say, hire yourself a civil rights lawyer, a few bodyguards, a good PR team, and kick that closet door down. Even if non-athletic minded folks don't know your name before, you can imagine they will when you're done. It amazes me that guys that make such huge sums, more figures in one year than I'll make in ten or twenty years, don't have the balls to stand up and say, "This is who I am. Deal with it."
I look forward to your comments.

well... it's a far more complex issue, not as black-and-white as you suggest.

One thing gay activists (who often know little about sports -- no, I'm not suggesting you are in that group, DG) tend to forget is that gay jocks, like gay military folks, tend to be more conservative than the "typical" gay guy. They are often not socialized into gay culture because it doesn't make them feel welcome to begin with. They probably don't identify as gay for that reason alone, even though they have sex with men. Their life revolves around the sport they're in --if it didn't, they never woulda made it to the bigs in the first place.

This is changing, and as younger guys are exposed to more (and more diverse) openly gay people than the previous generation ever was, things will change even faster. I predict that when we do see an openly gay athlete, he'll be midwestern and Republican -- and then it will be the gay community's turn to show tolerance

posted by RGMike:
I don't know about him being a Republican (if only that most sports stars do not seem that publically political), but I do agree with your other comments. Reading Billy Bean's book really made that point - athletes not only don't have a lot of experience with the gay community, but live a good portion of their relatively young lives in situations where being gay is consistently and constantly used as a put-down. It is no wonder that gay athletes do not want to come out - they are in a (seemingly) relentlessly unwelcome environment. From the reactions of Bean's teammates, I don't think the vast majority of athletes are Rocker-like homophobes, but they do accept the idea that gays are weak and second-class.

I don't think it will change until both the players and the coaches are more comfortable with gay people.

I think sometimes that it is that old fear of what one's fans might think than just solely about endorsements and money. For example, there has been unconfirmed rumors about Sandy Koufax for years. You would think at this point of his life that he would just admit that he was gay. Instead, he ends up freaking out at the New York Post and breaking ties with the Dodgers organization. However, Sandy had to deal with enough anti-Semitic crap during his playing career, and may not have the patience to deal with this now, too (if it is even true at all). Even though no one should be forced into disclosing his/her sexual preference, I think many gays (specifically gay sports fans and gays playing youth sports) could use a real role model. This is real tricky; I don't think there is a definitive answer.

It's not a preference, like what cereal one eats. It's an orientation. "Preference" is a Christian Right buzzword.

No offense--honest--to the starter of this topic and all, but I'm sick to death of speculating. NO. ONE. knows. what would happen if a major sport athlete came out. Not Billy Bean, not us. So, I'm just burned out on the whole "what would it be like"? angle.

But to follow up on RG's comments. I mean, I didn't feel welcomed in to the gay community AT ALL when I came out, so it would be even worse for a pro athlete. In addition to *gasp* loving sports *gasp*, I also loved really loud guitar bands *shock* and couldn't stand the whole Judy/Marilyn/Madonna cult *faint*. It took me years to find my niche; it's much easier now with the 'Net, of course. Elite athletes are cut off from general society in a lot of respects anyway, from being told from an early age that they're special and a lot of the rules governing society don't apply to them to living an insular, rarified life once they make it.

Once a major sport athlete does come out while playing, he's going to have to deal with something almost as bad as homophobes: gay activists who will latch on to him like those little fishes do to whales and try to get him to be a spokesperson for this or that cause. I remember when the guitarist/songwriter Bob Mould (Husker Du and Sugar) came out--though his fans already figured it out since he used gender neutral pronouns in all his songs--he made some really stupid comments about gay life, because he simply didn't know any better. Gay magazines that would never in a million years have talked to him before because of his music and the fact that he's a chunky boy suddenly were calling up and asking for interviews and his opinion. He said later that it took about 2 years to get comfortable with the whole situation. So, if a really obscure musician went through all that, multiply it by about 1,000,000 for a major athlete.

WHOA.... it's gonna snow, i think you're 100% correct... maybe 125% correct.

Did you ever stop to think, however, about those who very well might lose these jobs that pay them all this money, if they decide to come out? It's a very real possibility.

Excellent points, Jim -- particularly your statement regarding the use of the phrase "sexual PREFERENCE"....that is the ONE term that is so commonly misused by the mainstream media and "open minded" members of the public that rarely, if ever, is met with the derision that it deserves....perhaps this is just another one (of many) pet peeves of mine but whenever I hear the term "sexual PREFERENCE" used in relation to the gay community, it never fails to annoy me....as you accurately state, the brand of cereal that you choose to eat in the morning or the how you like your steak cooked is your preference, NOT your sexual orientation.

It's not unlike IMHO when a criminal is charged with murder, rape or some heinous crime and their defense attorney raises the argument that they simply used "bad judgement" on that day....I'm sorry but wearing brown shoes with a black suit is a case of bad judgement, not committing a crime.

OK, I think you see my point -- maybe I'm too hung up on certain phrases or poor use of the english language that consistently attract my ire....perhaps I should be an English teacher in my next life wink

My venting is over but the points you raised in your post Jim are right on the money (as usual).

While I am listening to what you guys are saying about "preference" since I am the one who said it, I am trying to understand why I have always used this term instead of "orientation". Who knows if this is a word that I have subconsciously picked up from the media or the right-wing. Although I am not personally offended by the term, I will try to be more cognizant in the future of offending anyone else.

Jim is right about gay activists. It's not enough to come out, it's like activists feel you have to prove it. An athlete would have their hands full dealing with the fall out let alone being the new pride poster boy in every major city.

It's fine that you feel that way, but I disagree. People are free to live their own lives and no one owes it to anyone else to come out or stay closeted for the comfort or satisfaction of others.

I think Jim is right on the money. It's so frustrating, because activists are coming from the mind set that we need to come out to show the world that we are here and we are just like everyone else and we want to be treated equally.

These athletes just want to be who they are. They don't want to come out for any causes, they just want to be able to be themselves completely, so they can be their best at playing their game.

If people (even gay people) would not be so into putting people into groups and catagories and realize/respect that we are all individuals, this world would be a better place. Just like not all straight people are the same, it's similar for gay people. They only thing we definately have in common, is we like to sleep with someone of the same sex. There are so many differences between us. It's proven everyday, right here on this site. The thing that we need to do as gay people is respect the differences and celebrate the diversity within our own community. If we can do that, we would definately be walking the talk.

Here's how to distinguish the terms "sexual orientation" from "sexual preference":

My "sexual orientation" is gay (or, for you more clinical types, homosexual)

My "sexual preference" is for barrel chested, solidly built men, 5'7" to 5'9", short dark hair, and tattoo and piercing free.

Or, as one friend puts it, "My sexual preference is often!"

Interesting. Do you feel the same way about closeted professional entertainers? Would you hold them to the same standard, and if not, then why not?

I wish things were different and sports figures and sports people in general were more open minded and accepting, and I sure hear what you are saying. Overall the U.S. lags behind Europe and other countries when it comes to acceptance of ones sexual orientation. WE are moving forward, but more slowly than other countries. The sport of tennis comes to mind, and I think of Martina Navratilove, and Mauresmo of France, both of whom I feel are strong role models, and whom I admire both, greatly. Maybe it would take a few atheletes from different sports, baseball, basketball, football, and fairly big names too, to come out at the same time, and put the sports world on notice, that this is the way it is, and you will have to get over it. I long for this day! wink

I think it is so wonderful that we can have this conversation in such an open and refreshing way. As I read each post I realize that there is a great deal of validity to what everyone is saying (even though there are differing views). This is a very complex issue with no easy answers (if so, we would have had out athletes years ago). Your thoughts have caused me to think beyond what I read in the mainstream (including gay mainstream) media. Thanks.

wink

The same has been said about most professions -- actors, politicians, clerics, teachers, businesspeople. Of course it feels risky, as it does for virtually any of us who make a considered, principled decision to be honest about our orientation. But as times change and more and more examples are set, that argument just sounds increasingly reactionary. I'm particularly mystified as to why so very few retired athletes have come out.

Granted. I just wish more public figures would reach the point where they're willing to take the plunge -- especially in areas where coming out breaks down people's stereotypes, and pro sports is high on that list. I'd never pressure an individual to come out, and I respect their decision either way, but I'd like to see it happen. :cool:

I'd like to reply to the earlier comment made about if a professional athlete came out, he or she would find themselves with a lot of gay activists latching onto them. Sadly, this is true. What would also happen is a lot of gay activists would also be openly critical of the athlete - i.e., when Ellen DeGeneres came out. Closeted athletes are finding themselves in a "damned if the do, damned if they don't" dilemna. It would be great if they could come out and discover that really NOBODY cared who they slept with as long as they scored the goals and the points and hit the home runs - but, Mama always said life isn't fair.

Though this is just a matter of semantics, it seems some of us equate being "out of the closet" with being a banner-carrying spokesman. They aren't the same things. As an example, during last season's "gay Met" stupidity, I recall Rob Dibble talking of his playing days when a teammate came out during a team meeting. That player never made his sexual orientaion part of his public image but by being open with his teammates, he was (obviously) not closeted.

My view of the closet is that a person leaves it by acknowledging his/her sexuality and shatters the closet and its door hinges by coming out to just one other person. In doing that, a person walks a bit taller, a little prouder, and with greater personal integrity. Doing this commands respect from everyone one meets and allows a person to give people the proper respect they deserve. Until more people--public figures & private people--are able to live with that kind of respect, athletes with the courage of Martina Navratilove or Billy Bean will be rare. It's all part of accepting people who are not "like me" as having value.

~Adam

I'm surprised that I never heard of this before, Adam, and that it did not generate more publicity (at least here on Outsports and particularly in light of the Mike Piazza "controversy")....despite his ultra-macho, nasty-boy persona Rob Dibble seems to be an open-minded "21st century guy" who would be receptive to an openly gay teammate as long as he was an unselfish player who gave his all on the field.

Taking into consideration the length of time that has elapsed since Dibble retired from the game, this incident (if it actually took place and if Dibble recounted the story on national radio or television I have no reason to doubt him) is even more startling -- hopefully it represents another step, albeit small, in the right direction in context to the courage displayed by Billy Bean and Esera Tauolo.

I knew Dibble had known a player who was gay, but hadn't realized he'd come out to everyone at a team meeting. I recall Mike Timlin also saying that one of his former teammates had been out to him.

I recall the Mike Timlin quote, JC, but I believe he was referring to the fact that most of the team "knew" (or at least HE did) that a teammate was gay, which is in sharp contrast to Dibble recounting a fellow Cincinnati Red coming out at a team meeting (at least it was likely a Cincinnati player since the only other organization Dibble played for was the Brewers and that was for a brief 15 appearances prior to retiring in 1995).

Getting back to the Timlin quote keep in mind that he has pitched for a number of teams including the Orioles in 1999 and 2000, who at that time had a well-known veteran outfielder on the roster who has been the subject of much speculation about his sexuality -- some of which was fueled by his own insistence to include a clause in his contract enabling him to stay in a separate hotel from the rest of the team when they were on the road (and I'm not referring to Cal Ripken, who had a similar, well-known clause in his contract, albeit for different reasons).

Regarding Rob Dibble's comment: he and Sean Salisbury are co-hosts on the "Dan Patrick Radio Show." Last season, during the 'gay Met' incident, Patrick asked them how a gay teammate would be welcomed in a locker room. Both Dibble & Salisbury said they had played with gay teammates with Dibble telling of being in a locker room team meeting when a player came out to the team as a whole. He acknowledged that it caused some divisions within the team (some extremely conservative religious would cite Biblical passages against homosexuality) but stressed that whatever problems there were were worked out within the team. When Patrick brought up the shower question, Dibble just laughed it off, saying that people who worry about that don't know what it's like in a locker room shower. In there, Dibble said, everyone is a target for jokes & everyone dishes it out.

For what it's worth, prior to listening to the program (I often have ESPN Radio on at work) I had thought of Dibble as something of a Neanderthal, but he comes across as a considerate, open-minded guy--if not the brightest bulb. I'm still trying to decide if Patrick--who comes across as a boorish misogynist--is just trying to appeal to the "frat house audience" or if what one hears is the real guy.

~Adam

Well said, Adam!....your views echo my feelings on both Dibble and Dan Patrick 100%....just don't get me started on that egocentric Stuart Scott -- booyah! :confused: will someone please tell him his "schtick" went out of style about five years ago.

Great news about new regs for the FA which governs English Football in Jock Talk 6.25.2003.

I followed a link to a very interesting story:
Class warfare is the key to soccer 'gay taunts' row

This guy Fowler sounds like a serious closet case to me.

And what about male figure skaters? We have one or two out ones there, and several more hiding. Did Paul Wylie ever come out, or was he just having a good ole time when I caught him in the sauna?

The one thing I remember about Paul Wylie is that he was one of many who denied that male figure skaters had alarming AIDS rates, and said something along the lines of "I know a basketball player (referring to Magic Johson) has AIDS so I guess that means basketball has a bigger problem than figure skating."

Didn't Brian Boitano also deny being gay until recently, and wasn't he kind of "forced" out?

[ June 25, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: antarctica17 ]

Didn't Paul Wylie get married (yes, to a woman) at some point? He did...is he still? I do find that odd, since a (male) friend of mine actually "dated" him for about 3 weeks (and has the pics to prove it....) wink

I had a general query for you guys as well...let's say you have knowledge of a pro athlete who is gay and closeted...I guess it gets down to the whole closeted rights issue..do you out them here (this isn't exactly the mainstream media, no offense, we love Outsports at my house!) I mean....well, I guess I am mostly just curious as to what you all think about that :confused:

I don't think it is appropriate to out anyone, anywhere. These are people's lives that we are discussing and we certainly do not have the right to enter into the lives of persons we don't know.

Based on a number of earlier discussions on the subject*, the clear consensus is that outing someone is irresponsible and an invasion of privacy, that it's appropriate to encourage and support someone's coming out, but the decision to do so lies with the individual. In fact, Outsports has a policy against outing.

*
Rumor of a gay baseball player
Do closeted gay pro jocks visit Outsports?
Gay HOF Baseball Player? / Sandy Koufax Rumors

First, I want to thank everyone that has responded or read my original post. I really have enjoyed reading this discussion, but I think that RGMike hit it on the head for me when he wrote:

I came out to the military just last year (June, 2002) after having spent fifteen years in the armed forces, so his comments made a lot sense to me. For the reasons that RGMike states, it took me a very long time to self identify as gay (I'm still a registered Republican, but vote Democrat), but, eventually, when I did, I knew I had to stand up and be counted. However, I still came out while wearing the uniform when I could have just not re-upped on my enlistment. I would have loved to have continued to 'play the [military] game' after coming out, but I wasn't allowed. An 'out' ballplayer still has a good chance of playing some great games after he comes forward about his sexual orientation, I didn't get that chance.

I didn't have millions to loose either, but I did put a lot of life into the Army.

I realize now, that I have a lot of anger about this issue. Mostly I'm angry that some million dollar money making gay jock doesn't have the balls to stand up and be counted and make things better for us all, gay and straight. My anger has something to do with 'integrity', something that I came in conflict with in the military under 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'.

I console myself knowing that my coming out, at least, affected those in the military that knew me.

If you really want to hit a home run, come out Mr. Baseball.

Dan, I commend you and wish you well. It took a lot of courage to do what you did.

You may want to check out this thread in Non-Sports Related Topics, which started out to be a gossip item about a TV on-air personality in NYC, but turned into a discussion about coming out and what specifically defines it.

Dibble also pitched briefly for my White Sox. My Sox shall not be ignored!!!!

You only out someone if they are publically homophobic, or have denied it publically.

If Mike Piazza were gay, I would have no trouble outing him.

When people deny that they are gay and actually are, I believe that they are then saying gay is bad.

As for Brian Boitano, wasn't that an open secret pretty much? He lives, or lived, in San Francisco with his boyfriend.

I don't know about Boitano...the skater who was "forced" out was Brian Orser--his ex filed a lawsuit against him (maybe one of those "palimony" suits?) and that's how it became public knowledge.

In my opinion, if a professional athlete is in the closet professionally, let him (or her)be! I know about Esera for over a year before he officially came out of the closet publicly. I know he was a former Minnesota Viking, a sweet guy, attractive, kinda queeny (well, we all have our queeny moments and if you say you don't - YOU LIE ) I always knew him as Esera, the massively tall, little nellie guy at the Saloon. I wasn't surprised when he came out at all. Ya'll were like "OHMIGOD! He's gay and he use to play in the NFL!!" I think of it as no big deal.

Hell, I know other guys that play professionally, but will I say who? No and why should I? Let them say it for themselves.

[ July 01, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Allen ]

Originally posted by theodoresdaddy:

"If Mike Piazza were gay, I would have no trouble outing him.

As for Brian Boitano, wasn't that an open secret pretty much? He lives, or lived, in San Francisco with his boyfriend.

Funny you should mention Mike Piazza. I recently went on a date this past month with an out police commissioner here in Southern California. He is a huge baseball fan with season tickets. In the course of our date, he stated that Mike Piazza IS, in fact, gay, and that many people know it. Now this is just a rumor as far as I am concerned and our conversation goes, but honestly, please. <rolling my eyes> If he, or someone like him, is gay, why don’t they just admit it?

I am certainly of the opinion that coming out is a very personal decision. In addition, I would never out someone against his or her will, but when you get to be a public figure, you loose some of your privacy. It is part of the trade-off of fame. I do not mean to say that he or she, a gay athlete, shouldn’t be allowed to have a private life, but there are certain parts of your private life that are going to be detailed. Where was he or she born? Is he or she married or single? How many children does he or she have?

I recently read a back issue in The Advocate where Rosie O’Donnell, who was named Advocate’s Person of the Year 2002, stated that, before the Diane Sawyer interview, she thought she was already out. That it was obvious, she thought. That she did not hide it, but did not push it either. So, maybe some of these athletes are out. It is just a matter of privacy to them that we all do not know about it. And after this past month’s Supreme Court ruling, privacy rocks.

I think that having a private life is one thing but if you're in the public eye, you lose part of that. It's your choice to be in the public eye 9 times out of 10.

Rosie was an open secret. I never heard her deny that she was gay. She and her partner were in the tabloids.

I think all goes back to being a role model. If you're a pro athlete, or actor, or musician or whatever, you're automatically seen as a role model for kids, and some adults as well. If you deny being gay and you really are, that is sending the message that being gay is something to be ashamed of and that you can't be a pro athlete, or actor or whatever and be gay.

Allen mentioned Esera above- did anyone see him on the new Chilis commercial? Is that him? LOL

Anyways, I just would love for some high school kid who kicks some major ass in his chosen sport to come out before college, kick some ass there, then get to the pros and shut everyone the hell up! Not in a bad way- but just to say- I got here completely true to everything- they brought me in because I could get the job done- not because I was/wasn't gay.

But I don't really mind if present athletes don't come out. I think its great. There are tons of gay pro athletes- just doin their thang... getting the job done... and livin their lives.

So would I ... and that scenario, I think, will be the real breakthrough. :cool:

Excellent piece by Bob Lipsyte in USA Today, \"For sake of straight kids, quit tyrannizing gay sports stars\"

"Once we get to watch a homosexual athlete grow up, we just may grow up with him. Then the slurs will lose their power over all of us."

Chalk up one new customer. Even though they're not my style of restaurant in general I'll be checking out the new Chili's near Reading Terminal soon after they open.

I don't think that I will feel this country is great again (I lost that feeling after coming out to my commander in June of 2002. Suddenly, after fifteen years of military service, three words, "I am gay", made me unfit for duty.) until I see an openly gay astronaut. Then I will know that things have really changed for the better in this country, for all its citizens. Having an out pro athlete would be a step in that direction, I think.

I don't make an appearance too often around here, but I've been watching this thread, waiting to see if anyone would react the way I do and make my point for me. Since no one really has, here's my two cents:

We're talking about people who have devoted their ENTIRE LIVES, most since early childhood, to the pursuit of this dream -- being a pro in their sport. This isn't just their livlihood, i.e., the millions they make in contracts & endorsements, this is their entire LIFE. Like RGMike said, they wouldn't make it this far if they didn't have a single-minded dedication to and passion for the game they love. Not that there aren't athletes who are more interested in the money and the celebrity than in the game, but so what? Even they have invested more than their fair share of time, blood, sweat, and tears into getting here.

I don't in any way want to downplay DG's comments, because his story is one of the most courageous things I've ever heard. But that was HIS choice. I think the thing we haven't touched on yet is that most athletes identify as "BALL PLAYER" first and foremost, ahead of any political, religious, national or certainly any sexual orientation. These guys are consumed with their careers, and their teams. The ripples from a big "coming out" announcement wouldn't just effect them individually (I'm talking about team sports, obviously), but would effect their entire team in a potentially negative way. Especially if you're talking about a super star, who knows that his whole team is riding on his coattails, right down to the reserves at the end of the bench, that's a lot to ask of him -- not only to turn HIS life upside down, but to shoulder the responsibility of knowing his choice to speak out will effect, in ways he can't predict, his whole team and organization, too.

Okay, I don't want to preach. I just to point out that sometimes it's easy to say "I'd do it if I were him," without considering exactly what that would mean to someone who's living a dream many people have, but few people ever get to live.

Besides, doesn't it seem silly to anyone but me that we expect people to make big public announcements to tell the world, essentially, who they're having sex with? I mean, of all things, isn't what you do in your bedroom nobody's business but your own?

THANK YOU, Mikey22!!! Your thoughts parallel mine exactly...I've been waiting also for someone on this particular thread to "get it"...
There's a reason that most professional jocks who HAVE come out are those in individual sports or those who have since retired from their team sport....just spend a little time in an NFL or MLB lockerroom or on a team charter plane and you'll be a bit more understanding and sympathetic to those who are facing this particular dilemma....

Don't judge these guys unless you've walked in their shoes; it's not such a simple process and there are MANY factors that are involved!

One curious thing I would like input on:
Why have so few RETIRED jocks publicly come out?

We can understand active ones, but what's the harm once the career is over? Would love to hear what people think because this is one question I get asked a lot by the media.