Man, I'd love to be able to e-mail this entire thread to Mr. Bean and the producers of Arli$$. I'd also love to hear from some of Bean's former teammates who suspected but didn't care about who he was sleeping with. Bean has a right to his own agenda. The gay community also has the right to criticize one of its own.

Normally, as you guys have seen from my posts, I'm the one saying that I'm a guy who happens to be gay and I don't have to wear my gayness on my sleeve. You should live your life however you choose to live it, totally out, in the closet, whatever. However, I really do have a problem with Billy Bean constantly saying a player CAN'T come out.

Someone earlier said that he is a celebrity because he is gay and not because of his baseball prowess. I couldn't agree more. Who had ever heard of him until we hoisted him up on the gay athlete pedestal once he was out.

He, as many other civil rights activitists, have created a cottage industry with their cause (don't bash me yet). I would dare say that Mr. Bean derives a good portion of his income from his gay celebrity. Now, if a current (doesn't have to be an incredible player, just a current player) were to come out, Bean's celebrity just went out the window. He would be yesterday's news. All this to say, I think his opinion of a current player coming out could possibly be affected by what it would do to him.

Personally, if the gay players want to stay in the closet that's fine with me. However, we don't need Bean telling the rest of America that is what the players HAVE to do because they would never be accepted. He should keep his negative opinion to himself and quit polluting the minds of the rest of America.

Arliss did more for the gay cause when he told the player that we would stand beside him, no matter which decision he made, than anything that I have seen from Bean.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]

Great point, Aubie. Arliss experienced the same kind of discrimination that gays often experience and therefore "got it" and pledged his loyalty to the Grant Show character. Definitely the highlight of the show. And after watching the show again, and the scene with Bean, I practically threw up when he ended by telling Arliss that the Grant Show character would "need a friend." Yes, that's true, but just having secret supportive friends isn't enough. Has Mr. Bean actually encouraged anyone to come out in all his appearances as of late or has the discussion only been in the context of MLB players coming out?

And Jim and Lev - thank you for articulating more clearly what I think many of us feel about this situation...

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]

Not too long after Billy Bean's story became public, he appeared at a National Coming Out Day rally on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania. I went to see his speech and, though I don't recall him specifically saying anything about major league players, I liked what he had to say then.

It just seems that ever since the Brendan Lemon editorial about his ballplayer boyfriend got into the news, Bean is almost giving the opposite message from what he said that day. I can't help but think there's something to what Aubie said about Bean's losing celebrity status if a current player comes out.

To Bean's credit, he has in the past done a good job speaking around the country on gay issues.

Agreed, Jim@OS. I had the privilege of meeting Billy when he spoke at a Gays In Sports Forum here in SF in March, '00 and was impressed with the man, particularly his sensitivity. A friend of mine grew up and played little league with him and neither of us think he's as calculating as some would think he is. He doesn't need the money, since his partner's restaurant is bringing in the bucks in SoBe, and he's not so vain as to put a monopoly on his fame. More power to him, I say - and more confusion to his enemies!

Sometimes, I just can't believe some of the positions, attitudes, and perspectives I read on this board.

You guys want a Major League Baseball player to stand up, come out and be proud. But when one does, abit, years after retirement, you practically curcify him for not being, or not taking the political correct stance and actions. I can see why a pro jock would not come out if this is what he has to expect... and this coming from just one gay internet site...let alone the str8 community.

It is also very ironic that a site which caters to sports fan who are gay tolerates their own "closeted" umpire who also says his life would be a "living hell" if he was to come out, not to mention coming out would end his career, by his own stance, advocates the closet can generate such vehement criticism to Billy Bean for saying the same thing.

Billy Bean is not "keeping anyone in the closet". The advice/opinion he gives about coming out while playing are valid, more valid than any of us who have not been a major league baseball player.

I've read that Billy Bean is weak of character, a coward, etc... How can any of us judge him, be he a pulic figure or not. I agree, Billy's remarks will make a player think twice before he makes that life changing decision. I'm glad Billy's remark makes that impact, because, what Billy said is true, like it or not. In regard to the argument that it is fear that fuels Billy's remark and because of the source, Billy's remarks are not a valid or worth considering, I say, that unless we have explicit knowledge of the said fear of the person, we have no room to talk. (whew, that's a long one.) Yes, all we have to fear is fear itself....I know, but one should never regulate another's fear.

Someone said, they've heard more positive statements from str8 guys than from Billy Bean. Well, when you don't have anything to risk, it's very easy to support or be non-committal to an issue. No str8 player's career will be over because of his support of the gay player.

I know what Billy says isn't what alot of us want to hear. We want to hear that honesty is the best policy, to be proud and free to be who we are, etc.. but in all our cheerleading, we forget that the choice to come out is a personal one and being gay does not require any of us to adhere to anyone else's standard of being "out" or "gay."

A ballplayer who is in the closet is just as gay as the queen struting down the street in a pride parade. How each want to lead their life is their right. Remember we all argue against the term "gay lifestyle" which throws us all in to one general way of being. So, we must respect on how gays style their lives which allow us all to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I don't see Billy as deliberately creating his poster boy situation. It was the media who went to him first. Yes, he agreed and he agreed to everything that he's done, so that opens what he says and does to public comment. However, don't blame Billy for taking advantage of the opportunities that have come across him, this is still America.

No one mentioned that in the episode of Arli$$, While Billy expressed his opinion to Arliss, he also noted that the ballplayer (Grant Show) had enough confidence in Arliss to come out to him, something Billy could not bring himself to do. I took this as Billy noting how things have improved. Small improvement, but improvement none the less. Progress is always slow, small steps.

Also, no one mentioned that in the episode, Billy does not ever talk to the player himself. The decision of the ballplayer(Show) to remain in the closet was made entirely on his own. Which told me that playing ball is the important thing to the player, not his making his sexuality a focus of his professional life. I feel this is exactly where Billy's remarks are coming from when he expresses his reservations. Coming out would overwhlem the reason why the guy is there in the first place, that is to play ball. The playing life of a pro jock is short. Supporting a player to come out is great, but if we start to forget why the guy is there in the first place, then we are no better than the ones who would get rid of the guy for coming out. The player would become political, an issue, a situation....not a baseball player. That's the problem.

Ok... Just a couple of thoughts on the subject.

Final thought:

I do wish when people express thoughts contary to the popular trend, the personal life, mental, emotional, masculine, gay state or status of said person is not attacked. It seems, when any of us don't fall in line with a certian "gay way of thinking", then the said person is not credible or "has issues"..

Come on.. that's as valid as saying Billy Bean has his own personal agenda for being a gay poster boy. It just doesn't address the issues.


Ok.... enough of me....talk to you guys later.

Edited for spelling, and other foopas.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

One quick question (I didn't see the show) - did Arliss talk to "Billy Bean, the gay former ballplayer" or to "a gay former ballplayer" (with a fictitious character name)?

He talked to Billy Bean as Billy Bean

Satx, Nice post, in fact, one of the BEST I've ever read on this board or elsewhere addressing this issue.

First off, I don't think any major league ballplayer has a "duty" to come out to the media. Someone on this site once noted that you're out when you're out to the people that matter to you--probably not reporters. Let's be honest--an out gay ballplayer would be a great boon to other gay ballplayers, to young aspiring gay players, etc., but there's not a whole lot of advantage to it for the player himself.

But there are a couple of things that bother me about Bean's very negative view of a ballplayer coming out. One is that it doesn't seem to be really based on his personal experience. By his own account, at least the former teammates who were close to him (e.g. Brad Ausmus) didn't reject him. Perhaps it would have been different had he come out to everybody, but it's not like he's really reported any particular harassment by former teammates/managers, etc. And he doesn't seem to be willing to accept the fact that seven years is a long time--most baseball players were born after Stonewall now. And contrary to the corn-fed farmboy mythology, more ballplayers are probably from the southern California suburbs than midwestern farms. I have a hard time believing that professional athletes are that much more homophobic than police officers, for example.

I actually think it's possible that a straight player's opinion might be more objective here. A lot of people have dismissed statements by players that it wouldn't matter as "politically correct", but Rob Dibble has not been noted for excessive political correctness in the past. And Dibble has more experience with at least partially out gay players than Bean does. And if it's ok for media people to say "I'm ok with it, but a lot of players wouldn't be", I think it's safe to say, players wouldn't catch flack for saying that either. And some have, but others have been more positive. An intelligent player should be aware that making a statement to the media like "I'd back them 100%", as Bagwell did, is going to encourage a closeted teammate to come out. If their real opinion is that it would be catastrophic, they're taking a big risk.

Something that I think may be misleading for Bean is while I imagine there's a lot of homophobic joking in the clubhouse (and certainly would make a gay player uncomfortable), I don't think it necessarily means that the players are really homophobic. The straight players may be in a better position (less threatened) to recognize what's serious and what's not.

If I were a player coming out though, I think the time to do it is in the offseason. (And come out to the team first, to be sure you have managerial backing). That way, the initial media wildfire won't be a big distraction for the rest of the team. I think a lot of players, who might not be particularly homophobic, would still resent spending a lot of time giving interviews about their gay teammate in the middle of a pennant race.

First: J@OS - thanks for your answer. Also pls check your prvt msgs for a link (not related to this thread)


I think it's instructive to read what Bean was saying in 1999-2000 - it seems to me that an initial enthuasiasm has waned (again, no judgment intended, just a look at public statements he made then and now).

This Geocities page carries both the Lipsyte (NYT) and original Herald articles verbatim - you may need to copy & paste the link into your browser if Geocities has disabled direct linking

http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Stage/1.../1316/bean.html

Also a March 2000 article in TWN, which I think is a free gay weekly newspaper in South Florida. The article intro is:

On The Cover

Former major league baseball player, and SoBe businessman,Billy Bean stepped out of the closet last year in an explosion of media attention. Today finds Bean busy juggling responsibilities
between a successful restaurant he runs with his partner, Efrain Veiga, and being a spokesman for the gay community.

TWN Cover March 2000

TWN Article March 2000

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Wurm ]

If bean wasn't the only out ex baseball player, I probably wouldn't defend him. It seemed the gay community was pretty happy about him coming out and breaking down stereotype. Now, Bean makes a statement about the MLB enviroment for a player coming out at this point in time and the community is perplexed. I don't know fellas, one day it's going to be time to put the rainbow flag away and count ourselves as individuals.

Jim, The Robinson situation is always interesting, people bring up the paralell a lot. I used to think that gays and blacks basically faced the same kinda struggles. However, I have some friends here in Atlanta who have pretty much convinced me otherwise. I really don't think you can compare what blacks went through to what gays have had to put up with. While there is discrimination on both sides, it was worse for blacks. Being gay isn't a discernable physical trait. We are a sexual minority. That's hard to compare to the struggles of people who were treated sub-human because of the way they looked.

I like Eli better.

Hmmm, very interesting and intelligent post, Sax. But I have to disagree with the interpretation that people here want Mr.Bean to be politically correct in his comments and opinions. He's not a spokesman for the gay community, he's a spokesman for himself, so his opinions are just that, better or worse. Wanting him to speak from a positive place, an evolved place, and a progressive place isn't politically correct thinking, it's hopeful thinking. Don't we assume that Billy wants things to be easier for those who come along after him? Doesn't he want future baseball players who might just be gay be able to be out and have it be a normal part of the fabric? This is where I have a big problem with a few posters here. I don't consider this some "gay way of thinking" or "politically correct" or all the other not so subtle jabs directed here towards gay people who feel being out is simply mandatory for anyone living an honest, examined life. If you're not yet out, I understand that, but being out (however an individual describes that) has to be the goal because otherwise you're living a lie. Living a lie isn't really living fully, in my opinion. (and the way some people defend the closet here just reassures me that it's a angry, lonely place)
Billy Bean has put himself forward, for whatever reasons, and while it's great that he's a former player capable enough to have made the major leagues, his discouraging words about his perceived reality of MLB just aren't doing anyone any favors. My question is why isn't he forward thinking? Why can't he set aside his less than satisfying experiences and work towards making things better for the future kids and players? If that's too politically correct for some folks, well then, you're not part of the solution in my book...and yes, I know, my book ain't for everyone...I'm not underestimating the difficulty of anyone's life, but I'm also not underestimating the difficulty of all who've bravely come out and helped move the gay community forward; that is what will save future gay kids and teenager and adults for that matter from all the crap we've all experienced. Let's move forward, Mr. Bean, it's hopefully a far better place...

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]

[quote]Originally posted by gmginsfo:
Satx, Nice post, in fact, one of the BEST I've ever read on this board or elsewhere addressing this issue.

---

WOW!!! Gee, Thanks GMGINSFO

Gotta chime in here ... great post, satxbuddy!

Yes, I think we're all agreed that we want this world to become a better place for gays. So much progress has been made, but there's still so much ahead of us, that's for sure. What bothered me about the posts criticizing Bean was not that they disagreed with his opinion, but that they seemed to be attacking Bean personally: he's a coward, he's a selfish opportunist, etc. First of all, not to get too broken record-y here, but Billy Bean knows and has lived within the unique environment and dynamics of a Major League baseball team. It's 25 guys who spend almost every single hour of every single day together for 7-1/2 months, in a very macho competitive industry, under intense pressure and the harsh glare of the media. It is a whole different world, a whole different universe, from anything any of us have experienced. So for people to insist that they know better than Bean ... hey, he might be wrong. But what kind of authority are you??? Also, let's not forget that Bean siad that it could work out for a beloved superstar, just not a journeyman player.

Second, does anybody ever give anybody the benefit of a doubt any more? I was rather alarmed to see the attacks on Bean's character in this thread. I was also glad to see that Bean seems to be a pretty good guy, who does genuinely commit himself to making life better for gays/lesbians. But on this board, a whole slew of folks were ready to crucify Bean for his cowardice and selfish opportunism, frankly, without any solid proof of such grave failures of character. Forget about gay & straight for just a minute ... if you look for the good in people, you're much more likely to find it (OK, I promise that will be the last platitude in this post!).

Finally, for one to hope that a public figure comes out and thereby makes a better present and a better future for gays/lesbians is one thing. Hey, it's human nature. But to expect it, demand it, and crucify those who choose not to is quite another. I've said this before, but it bears repeating. When Ellen DeGeneres came out, did it improve my life in all sorts of immeasurable yet significant ways? You bet. But what price did I pay? ZERO! My life was never under public scrutiny, my career was never at stake, and I didn't have to put up with any of the crap that Ellen did. I'm forever grateful to Ellen. But if she had chosen the complete opposite route, hiding deep in the closet, who the hell am I to criticize her? Some on this board probably don't want to hear this, but it is incredibly selfish to expect other people to pay a price while you sit back and effortlessly reap the benefits. Let people make their own choices in life and then let them be, just as it's your right to make yours.

If you disagree with Bean, I got no problem with that. But if you make all sorts of ugly assumptions about Bean's personal agenda and character because of his opinions, that I got a problem with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bryan d.:
[QB] But I have to disagree with the interpretation that people here want Mr.Bean to be politically correct in his comments and opinions... Wanting him to speak from a positive place, an evolved place, and a progressive place isn't politically correct thinking, it's hopeful thinking...


Reply: MMMM well, when you get criticized for your remarks as not being what the remarks should be....I'd say people here want Mr. Bean to be political correct.
________________________________________________

"...Don't we assume that Billy wants things to be easier for those who come along after him? Doesn't he want future baseball players who might just be gay be able to be out and have it be a normal part of the fabric? This is where I have a big problem with a few posters here. I don't consider this some "gay way of thinking" or "politically correct" or all the other not so subtle jabs directed here towards gay people who feel being out is simply mandatory for anyone living an honest, examined life. If you're not yet out, I understand that, but being out (however an individual describes that) has to be the goal because otherwise you're living a lie. Living a lie isn't really living fully, in my opinion. (and the way some people defend the closet here just reassures me that it's a angry, lonely place)...

Reply: MMMM If this is Politcial Correctiveness or a mandatory "gay thinking", I don't know what is... To thy ownself be true...
So if one's sexuality is not a top priority in one's professional life and said person doesn't want his sexuality the main focus of his professional career, then, I don't see how anyone can assign such a person "living a lie." We all make choices, some of them tough ones, in how we live our lives. If one guy is out waving rainbow flags, great, but that doesn't mean the guys who don't are living a lie. It could very well mean, those other guys live a different life, with different life situations and experiences. I never believed that "living a lie" agrument. Being closeted doesn't mean the guy is living a lie. It does mean, his sexuality is not for public viewing and nor does the public have a right to know the guy's sexuality, that includes the sexuality of pro-jocks.
_______________________________________________

"...My question is why isn't he forward thinking? Why can't he set aside his less than satisfying experiences and work towards making things better for the future kids and players?...

Reply: Because Mr. Bean probably is telling the truth. What better forward thinking is there than telling the truth. Those future kids and players will do well by knowing what they can really face if and when they enter that level of the sport by going in with their eye's wide open. Being forward thinking isn't all cheerleading and Go, dude, Go. Mr. Bean brings an aspect that is real and that every gay jock who plays team sports knows first hand. It's not just the gay issue, any individual oddity or deviation to the group is frown upon. Look at those jocks who died from dehydration or other medical reasons on the practice field last year. There is a team attitude that's very real and it rules if you want to be part of the team. No one wants to look weak, need special treatment, or be the center of attention. To ignore it would be a grave disserivce to those future kids and players.
_____________________________________________

"...If that's too politically correct for some folks, well then, you're not part of the solution in my book...and yes, I know, my book ain't for everyone...

Reply: Your right, and I agree, your book isn't for everyone. You're book only works for you. Others may live by the same or similar books, but I would be hard press to believe it's made for everyone. Nor does your book make anyone else's book less valid, true or credibile. As I understand it, the Bible is accpeted as the "Good Book", and I am pretty sure among this group, that is probably disputed as well.
_____________________________________________

"...I'm not underestimating the difficulty of anyone's life, but I'm also not underestimating the difficulty of all who've bravely come out and helped move the gay community forward; that is what will save future gay kids and teenager and adults for that matter from all the crap we've all experienced. Let's move forward, Mr. Bean, it's hopefully a far better place...

Reply: If a guy wants to come out and be open about his sexuality, great, so be it. However, I do not agree that coming out moves the gay community forward. It's how all gay men, closeted or out, lead their lives that will move the gay community forward. Being responsible, contributing members of society is what will move us forward. While "coming out" is a brave thing to do, it doesn't necessarily gain brownie points with me. All you have to do is view some of the gay pride parades and wish some guys not be so "out".

Thought I'd reply...

One question that seems not to be asked is this one: Given what we know from his own freely-provided words and thoughts to Lipsyte and the others, does anyone think that Bean's "life attitudes" could have had a siginficant bearing on how his professional baseball career unfolded? Even restricting one's consideration to only Bean's autobiographical utterances, I think it is quite possible that it did. Opinions?

The flip side of the question is, would his attitudes have developed differently if his playing career were more stellar, but I don't think even Mizz Cleo would venture a stab at that one.....

This is no way meant to be an attack - I think it is very valid to scrutinize where a public person is coming from - to not just listen to their 'naked' words, but to make as informed judgment as possible as to who the "whole" person is. And in Bean's case he himself seems to give any interested party plenty of food for thought.

And the bottom line on this of all internet boards is that this is aftr all a DISCUSSION board where we exchange ideas thoughts and yes, even sometimes opinions, popular or otherwise. A positive opinion of Bean's words and positions doesn't necessarily construe obsequious mollycoddling just the same as disagreement doesn't necessarily equate an attak on his private character.

If one is so offended at Bean's position, boycott his restaurants. If you like his stance, schedule your next business dinner meeting there - that would probably reach him where he lives......

It's also very much within normal discourse to point out to those in the media and entertainment worlds that Bean's views on these issues are by no means the only ones (and I hope Outsports will use its bully pulpit to make that point clear) but it is also pretty clear that making Bean some kind of pariah weakens the overall argument.

Saying it another way, when open-minded, intelligent people are presented with multiple viewpoints, rather than just a single message, I am optomistic enough to think that most people will see that there are many truths, that these multiple truths are not necessarily exclusive to the detriment of all others and, that they will form broad-based, inclusive opinions and policies on their own.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Wurm ]

You go, Satxbuddy! But don't take just my word for it - I tend to be a bit of a crank, or so I'm told - you rely on your own judgment. Sounds to me like you're doing just fine!

Good thoughts, Wuermchen. Your music therapy prescription is obviously working. Maybe I'd be as level headed if they lowered my dose of Wagner, was?

Ein Waldvogelein made me do it!

gmg - I'll give you a bird, all right

I assume you'll be up at 6:57am PDT for the Tannhäuser from the Grüner Hügel

dont know what to think of Billy Bean, but that show (re-played last night) was terrible. I don't think an "early 1990's Fox" could have come up with something THAT bad.

"Arli$$" has never been a very good show, Sparty--especially compared to their other series. If it weren't for the discussion on this board, I wouldn't have even watched it last night when it was re-aired.

I've been in lust with Grant Show since he played Rick Hyde on Ryan's Hope back in the mid '80's. He has matured well. Pete

[quote]Originally posted by notyouthedog:
I've been in lust with Grant Show since he played Rick Hyde on Ryan's Hope back in the mid '80's. He has matured well. Pete

---

Just after "Melrose Place" began its run, there was an article in "Entertainment Weekly" about the men on it. In the latter part of the article, the guys did make mention of who had the biggest penis. Needless to say, each was saying he, himself, had the biggest. No disinterested third party verified their statments... at least not in the article. I would have volunteered to be the disinterested third party but was never contacted about it. Bummer!

Lest you think no one else is reading and paying attention to this discussion board, there was an article about Arliss & Billy Bean in the Miami Herald, even quoting Outsports illustrious founder Jim Buzinski.

Miami Herald Article

It seems to me that Billy Bean wants to have an exclusive on his status as an out ex ballplayer, and if others come out he'd be left in the dust, from his own marketing point of view. That doesn't take away from the good he has done by coming out--but the idea that the [closet] door should be closed behind him seems short-sighted and selfish. Why not inspire others to value themselves in ways other than endorsement dollars? And there is in fact no proof that if a ballplayer did come out that he would suddenly be worth nothing in that regard.

Courage has always been a hallmark of the virtues of sports. It seems Billy just believes that stops when you leave the field. At least he should allow for the possibility of a different, more enlightened out-come.

In a similar topic, sportinlife posted

[quote]The height of irony that Billy Bean's quote ending the piece is "There's no social system that supports you if something bad happens."

I'd like to be the first to say that I fully support Billy Bean personally for coming out. It's his presumptious attitude toward others coming out that I can't support.

---

Joe in Philly replied

[quote]Maybe Billy Bean ought to say, "I'll gladly volunteer my services as part of the 'support system' for any player who wants to come out."

---

Well, we'll really get to see what Billy Bean has to say. On Wednesday (8/7) from 3:30pm - 4pm ET, our very own Jim Buzinski will square off with Billy on CNN's Talk Back Live. Be sure to tune in!

[quote]Originally posted by Cyd at Outsports:
Well, we'll really get to see what Billy Bean has to say. On Wednesday (8/7) from 3:30pm - 4pm ET, our very own Jim Buzinski will square off with Billy on CNN's Talk Back Live. Be sure to tune in!

---

Excellent work, boys! Somebody tape it.

Way to go guys. My office is right across the street from the CNN Center, so I'm going to check it out live. Good luck and be kind to Billy.

Z

Hmmm, this should be interesting especially since it's a purely hypothetical discussion: there are no current players who are openly gay. So will this be a repetitive discussion about Billy's pessimistic viewpoint or just a fantastic way to promote OUTSPORTS? I really hope we won't have to hear Billy drone on about how difficult it was to be in the closet..yuck. I hope Jim's example and experience as an out sports editor gets plenty of airtime.

Go Jim, go!

The show's booker was a bit vague on the actual topic, but it is based on the discussion on this board. There is a 3rd guest, an author, Elihu(? Harris.

Is that Elihu Harris the former mayor of Oakland?

Personally I'd love to see someone ask Billy what his advice might be towards young ballplayers and athletes who're nowhere near the majors yet? I'd love to know what he feels must be done so that the future is a bit brighter than it was for him.

[quote]Originally posted by Munson Man:
Why the attacks on Billy Bean? I don't agree with his position, either, but the fact is he's entitled to hold and articulate whatever opinion he wants on the topic. The problem is his opinion differs from the self-appointed guardians of thought in the gay community, who suffer from the same intolerance of differences that our straight brethren suffer from. Billy Bean is being honest about his feelings, and isn't that what being gay is all about?

---

No, Munson Man, the problem is his opinion is either colored by self-interest (see other posts) or by his own internalized paranoia, which we all should be able to recall from our early years just coming out. If it is the former, then bye-bye Beanie. If it is the latter, then I may pity the guy's struggle in private but he deserves sharp public rebuke by members of the community who are a little better adjusted to being out. Either way, he has no business instructing other closeted athletes about what they ought to do. When I've had to advise young people about coming out, I've tried to give them the pluses and minuses of both coming out and staying in the closet - to try to help them to decide what is best for them, not dictate THE correct answer for them based on my own experience.

As for your whining about political correctness, you surely realize that any self-appointed spokesperson for the gay community who is willing to spew negative opinions about the community immediately gets rewarded with a high-profile platform by the media. It's called the Uncle Tom effect. Ask Clarence Thomas and Andrew Sullivan how personally enriching it can be.

The segment is set for about 3:15-3:45 Eastern time today.

Jim did a very fine job with the little time that was given to him. It was mostly dominated by Billy's whining. I'm a supporter of his but he spent entirely too much time back pedaling. He took 20 minutes to answer the question why he didn't come out while he was playing and basically he just got on my nerves. I was happy to see the supportive comments from the young people in the audience and even during the breaks, they seemed to be supportive. Again, bravo to a handsome Jim. You represented yourself and the community well :-)

Z

After reading about BB ad nauseam, I just don't understand why he feels the way he does.

It seems like staying in the closet hurt him, and from what I've read, he's become a much happier person since coming out. Perhaps his own career would've been longer & stronger if he had been able to be himself--not hide his boyfriend when teammates came over or feel like he should get married to prove his heterosexuality!

Does he really think his not-so-illustrious MLB career would've suffered if he'd come out? Doesn't he ever say to himself: "Maybe if I had lived my life more honestly, I would've been able to better focus on baseball."

Look, the man's entitled to his opinions and his opinion that it'd be really difficult to come out as a player is kinda obvious. But he seems adamant that a player should not come out at all and I find it hard to believe he feels that's a player's only option.

I look forward to reading about the interview.

And while seven years isn't very long, the gay perspective (apart from the AIDS epidemic) and media awareness has increased tenfold in the last five years. I understand Billy's point of view from back then, from his days in the big leagues, but the whole point is to move on and try and change things for the better. That's why his comments have gotten such flak; they're dated, they're self-pitying, they don't encourage evolution. Let's face it, the country's still full of backwards thinking, ignorance, and prejudice; but, things are gradually moving forward for the better and the march must continue.

Forget Billy Bean: My new role model is satxbuddy1.

Seriously, great posts, satxbuddy1.

[quote]Originally posted by SportsOutdoorsGA:
Forget Billy Bean: My new role model is satxbuddy1.

Seriously, great posts, satxbuddy1.

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Who.. me?.... awww shucks Thanks, Buddy...

[quote]Originally posted by satxbuddy1:


Who.. me?.... awww shucks Thanks, Buddy...

---

Just don't start any other arguments with the ump. lol (I just read them on that thread.) I love reading the ump's posts and would hate to see him stop giving us a look at the game from the inside.

Ump25 gives as good he gets...He's big boy and can take care of himself.

Besides, I think Ump25 and I are somewhat of similar personalities bases... we call'em like we see'em.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]