Thought I'd share this point/counterpoint that ran in the Oakland Tribune. They gave us the OK to reprint it and would like your comments.

I'm particularly impressed that both the point and counter point referenced Jason Kidd and attendent troubles specifically as support for his argument.

[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: jqueer ]

Jim,

I hate to say it, but I really think the guy in Oakland is right. I just don't think people are ready for a gay athlete yet. I mean, Nick airs a show on same sex parents, and people have a fit with that.

People in America love their sports. There's no two ways about it. People in America, generally, don't like gays. (I'm sure I'll get a lot of argument on this). I mean, typically "gay" sports like figure skating, diving, don't even have "out" athletes on them. At least, not while they are competing. If these sports can't have them, then how can a major sport like baseball?

Baseball, however, would be the first major sport we'd see a gay guy in. I figure hockey will be the last. *sigh*

Trevor

What about Messier?

I agree with both of you. Any MLB player to come out publicly will have to have All-Star talent. When it comes down to it, as long as that person produces on the field, he'll be accepted. He'll have to be motivated by hecklers though, as they will be brutal.

As opposed to someone who's an All-Star coming out, I could also see some major young talent, who's always been out since high school, coming up through the ranks. He'd have to be of strong will with lots of skills, and a special character, but I could see that happening too.

IMHO it is much more likely that an MLB player would be outed than it is for one to come out on his own. I wonder how that would change the fan reaction. Here's my thinking: One common antigay argument is "Why do they have to talk about it?" If a guy is outed, he can't be accused of being the one to bring up the subject. If the outed player refuses to discuss his personal life even after being outed, maybe it would turn public sentiment against anyone who attacks/taunts the player.

I guess each argument has some foundation, but I think Jim's is better supported and, well, I'm in agreement! When the heck will baseball - or society - be ready for an openly out player? Please, this isn't something you can firmly gauge. Secondly, When you break it down, it's a personal decision. The person who is considering such a proclamation has to first come to it on his own terms, on his own time.

Professional athletes can be more than just someone with some sporty gift. You don't have to be a politician to be political. You don't have to be a mindless jock. Everyone has a voice. Why must a mach hetero-male voice silence everyone else's?

I think a gay professional athlete has the potential to be monstrously revered for being able to be truly courageous and strong - respected not just by gay men and women, but by people from all backgrounds.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: wingsprouter ]

Do I think America is ready for an openly gay Baseball player, I am not sure... but what I am sure of is you cant use a city's jabs at someone who breaks the law or fans that jeer an obivously intolerant idiot to say that they will not accept an openly gay player... you do not choose to be gay, you choose to be a wife beater or you choose to express racist idiotic statements.

I DO think the country is not only ready for a major athlete, (pace, Brothers Bean and Louganis), to come out, but somewhat hoping one will. Lord knows we in the community are, but I think that since so much homophobia is generational and age-driven, there's simply a lot of pent-up curiosity that wants to be satisfied. If there's one thing that ought to be obvious about American popular culture, it's that its needs always are satisfied!

To put it in real terms, I say we see a major active pro athlete come out within the next 18 months.

Will fans accept a gay athlete? I believe the majority of fans will indeed be tolerant. We could even be surprised how quickly this might become a "non-issue," because the public is often ahead of the pundits in situations of this sort. What amazes me is the number of silly, straight-male comentators anxiously wringing their hands and mouthing nervous predictions over how terrible the fan response would be, while assuring us that they, personally, wouldn't have a problem with an out gay player. I'm not convinced that these are good-faith opinions. Rather, it strikes me that they're merely veiled attempts to express the age-old homophobic message, "Stay in your closet, faggott, or you'll suffer our punishment." And if these "experts" are sincerely concerned for the gay athlete, I'd like to remind them that this is not their cause to impede. (It also raises the question, "What are these straight-blokes so afraid of?") My father would sometimes offer the advice, "If you can't help, at least get out of the way." I think this bit of practical wisdom applies, here.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: fielderschoice ]

This tells you all you need to know about Chris Rose...

[quote] Chris Rose is the host of "The Best Damn Sports Show Period,'' which airs on Fox Sports Net. He was also the lead announcer on Celebrity Boxing.

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He does Celebrity Boxing and works with Tom Arnold. Yeah, I really think he's got an intelligent viewpoint.

I'm a baseball fan and I would accept an openly gay player, so to answer your question: yes.

With that said, you can't protect anyone from having their personal livfe used as ammunition for hecklers. Jason Kidd was called a wife beater by a few morons. It wasn't the entire city.

If an athlete is strong enough emotionally to make it to the pros, they can handle some jeers from a couple of idiots.

Z

[quote]Originally posted by gmginsfo:
I DO think the country is not only ready for a major athlete, (pace, Brothers Bean and Louganis), to come out, but somewhat hoping one will.
To put it in real terms, I say we see a major active pro athlete come out within the next 18 months.

---

While noone can consider Bean a major athlete, I think it would be injustice to not consider Louganis such. The problem with both of them is that they came out _after_ their competitive careers. Hell, Louganis wasn't officially out while playing Darius in _Jeffery_ on Broadway.

Just a reminder on this topic, Jim (I think it was Jim) recently posted that a major non team sport athlete will be coming out on the 20th.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: jqueer ]

Revolutions don't happen after a consensus is taken. Coming out of the closet is often a slow, grueling process for an individual mostly because usually we're relatively young when we do it. It's beyond sensitive, it's a fragile time full of highs and lows. Yet, this debate is consistently framed in questions such as "Is the public ready for an out player?" It's professional sports, folks, as you all know; reveal your weakness and you're dead. Why the hell should any professional player come out? Will it help his career? Reduce distractions so he can focus on playing better? Improve his relationship with his team, his fans, and perhaps his sponsors? Obviously, no. We all may have something to gain by a player coming out, but a team sports player has little, if anything, to gain by coming out. I understand that and I respect their choice to keep it private from the world. Fame is invasive enough. If a star player decides to come out at some point, it would be logical for him or her to wait until the end of their career. I do believe individual sports are different; being a lone revolutionary can work to your advantage.

I believe this discussion has been somewhat sensationalized. It's a great way for Outsports to extend its brand name with the national media, and I embrace that, but the conjecture is much ado about nothing...yet. If anything, the whole discussion will probably assure that a major pro team won't be having an out player for quite awhile. I do respect how intensely we all desire this kind of statement and acceptance. And for whoever may have the balls to do it one day, he or she will gain a level of respect and appreciation that they may never have dreamed of.

Personally, to give my own two cents on the issue, it depends on the city. Right now I'm in Seattle, and if any Mariner, Sonic, or Seahawk came out, fans around here would immediately embrace them for who they are--and then, in some cases, go back to hating them because they cannot perform during the game.

But having been in Phoenix for all the years before this? No. I read an interesting article in the Arizona Republic last month about this issue, and the writer basically said Phoenicians have barely accepted minorities on our teams, so how will they accept homosexuals? And as much as I'd like to prove him wrong, it's the sad truth. Plus, remember who got rid of Kidd the season after he beat his wife; take a look at all of Colangelo's trades with similar players-they get into trouble with the law, they're gone. Finally, it would not surprise me if a large # of those e-mails to Nick came from AZ.

Personally, I'd also rather a Mariner came out than a DBack (Piñiero, if you're reading this, you know what to do! ). But this debate cannot be answered by nationwide surveys, it's really a city-by-city basis.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

Let's be clear: we're talking about a gay male athlete in a major team sport. There are several high-profile openly gay women athletes: Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, Conchita Martinez, Muffin Spencer-Devlin, Amelie Mauresmo (who's French, though, not American). Navratilova came out while still playing. Several WNBA players have quietly come out (though many more really could), and among other women's sports, I think the number of lesbians who'll be coming out may increase. Certainly there are some in the new women's soccer league. The main problem may be the team owners and sponsors, who fear the "lesbian" (or "gay," for that matter) tag.

Carl Lewis also is out now, though long after his career as the greatest track athlete of all time ended. But he also was tagged as "gay" while still running, and couldn't get a contract from homophobic American corporations, though European corporations such as Pirelli did take him on (and played with the gay stereotypes).

Most revolutions do not occur after consensus; in fact, consensus tends to have a slowing or retarding effect (just look at the cases of the American, French and Mexican revolutions, or the Bolshevik takeover of Russia, or the Cuban revolution, or the Civil Rights movement in the U.S., etc.).

Some courageous younger MALE athlete or athletes will come out and take the heat, and risk the wrath of team owners, teammates, fans, and the ignorant media and corporations out there that pay lipservice to homosexuals and LGBT issues, but foster homophobia and heterosexism time and again. Among team sports, baseball or NHL may be first, basketball last, the MLS and NFL in the middle. Among individual non gay-identified sports, I could see tennis being the forefront. The mens' game could certainly use some excitement--quickly!

okay...so the new out athlete is Deric Peterson, US 800 meter runner. I don't know...I follow track VERY closely, I subscribe to track and field news, I check the international federation every day, I read the track and field news sites, visit the major meets web site, follow high school track religiously, but I have never heard of this guy. I can name 10 US 800 meter runners, but he's not on my list....however, more power to him, but I think it will be a non-story. "professional" athlete is a little misnomer here...he probably gets a few thousand from adidas. but its a step...lets hope more follow, although I doubt if anyone will..

All I can say is, at least it wasn't a figure skater.

[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
Carl Lewis also is out now

---

When did this happen? I haven't heard or read anything about it.

[quote]Originally posted by BballDC:
When did this happen? I haven't heard or read anything about it.

---

It's very debatable whether Carl Lewis is out or not. A lot of the speculation is because of an appearance on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire where he mentioned a partner or something--but as far as I'm concerned, he's not out since he's never said publicly "I am gay" and has never introduced a man as "my lover."

Ah, dupontred, but do you follow _indoor_ track?

I would have to say I agree with arisea. Depends on what city and what area of the country for acceptance. Generally speaking the west coast and the big cities back east I don't think would cause too much of a stir, but if one was to go down in the deep south :ie bible belt, I just dont' know bout dat....

First and foremost I would like to congratulate Déric Peterson for what he has done and I believe it will be an important step in making it possible for gay professional athletes to be honest about who and what they are.

I could not consider him a major athlete despite owning a national record only because I haven't heard of him. That doesn't mean he doesn't qualify by some more objective standard.

I look forward to learning more about him, his sport and his accomplishmnets in it. But what I'd most like to say right now is:

YOU GO DUDE!!!

and good luck.

[quote] Carl Lewis also is out now

---

I also want to know the source of him being publicly out. He seems to be like Rosie O'Donnell was. Everyone knows he's gay but he's never publicly said so.

You're right Joe in Philly, it is debatable if Carl Lewis is gay. I have come to my own conclusion that he is indeed gay. It's only my opinion and there is nothing definitive to say that he is absolutley gay.

My reasoning for thinking that he is gay are attributed to a couple of observations:
1) A few years ago he did an ad for Nike in which he is shown on a billboard, and in print ads, in the starting position of a race (crouching down with hands on the ground, one leg extended out behind him) in high heels. I read an interview he did in which he said the piece was done because he thought it provided a healthy satire to the rumors regarding his sexuality. Never in the interview did he absolutley take the opportunity to deny he was gay... the subject matter was left to remain very ambiguous.
2) As you mentioned in your post regarding Millionaire, the appearance on to me was also very intriguing and continued to lead me down this path. When one typically mentions someone as a partner in a very plutonic/innocent reference, it is usually attached to a qualifier... such as tennis or golf partner, work partner.. my partner on the police force.. stuff like that. But when one just leaves the reference to only that as a "partner", it piques interest and raises my suspicions.

Jim mentioned another good example in Rosie. For years I was lead to believe she was gay. When my str8 friends wives over the years asked me what I thought of those rumors, I responded the same way I have about Carl; I have strong suspicions that she was, but since she had not pubicly stated she was gay, then it's only my assertion and not factual.

I read somewhere (but forgetting the publication now) that Carl Lewis was pretty publicly out, and lost a lot of endorsement opportunities in the U.S. as the result. He did go over to Europe to do those ads for Pirelli tires, which played on his gayness, and the ads were quite a hit. I'm pretty sure he got other international endorsement deals as well.

As far as his appearance on Millionaire, he didn't even use the word "partner" if I remember correctly. But he did talk about spending weeks, if not months, at the hospital when his "friend's" sister was very sick, even to the point of sleeping on the floor of her hospital room night after night. Sorry, but nobody does that for his business partner, or golf partner, or workout partner. You only do something like that for your life partner.

He's quoted in a gay and lesbian book:

Title: Respecting the Soul: Daily Reflections for Black Lesbians and Gays
Author: Keith Boykin
With a unique insight for every day of the calendar year, RESPECTING THE SOUL can help change this reality by provoking, inspiring and empowering you, sensitizing your families and friends, and sharing the wisdom and experience of hundreds of well-known people who have contributed to our collected history including; Alvin Ailey, Josephine Baker, James Baldwin, Peter J. Gomes, Lorraine Hansberry, E. Lynn Harris, Carl Lewis, Little Richard, and RuPaul inspire and uplift you-and give you the encouragement you need to respect your soul.

Found this at http://aalbc.com/books/books1.htm

Update: read author's note and not everyone quoted in the book is gay. Need to read the quote, I guess.

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: JC ]

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: JC ]

[quote]Originally posted by JC:


Update: read author's note and not everyone quoted in the book is gay. Need to read the quote, I guess.

---

Not only that, but I would expect, from the genre of the book, that Lewis did not choose to be a part of this project. Even if the author swears everyone he used is gay, we only have his word for it and at that I would assume it's merely his guess.

Turned up this quote from http://www.rethinkingschools.org/Archives/...s/13_02/gay.htm

"Physical education teachers can talk openly and respectfully about gay athletes such as Greg Louganis, Martina Navratilova, and Carl Lewis."

They seem to be treating it as though it was a matter of record. Odd.

Lewis also was outed by VILLAGE VOICE columnist Mike Musto several years ago. Not that it got much attention. There also was former NY Giant Roy Simmons, a Black gay former pro football player who came out on the Phil Donahue show back in the early 1990s, but I haven't seen mention of him in over a decade now.

[quote]Originally posted by dupontred:
okay...so the new out athlete is Deric Peterson, US 800 meter runner. I don't know...I follow track VERY closely, I subscribe to track and field news, I check the international federation every day, I read the track and field news sites, visit the major meets web site, follow high school track religiously, but I have never heard of this guy. I can name 10 US 800 meter runners, but he's not on my list....however, more power to him, but I think it will be a non-story. "professional" athlete is a little misnomer here...he probably gets a few thousand from adidas. but its a step...lets hope more follow, although I doubt if anyone will..

---

Where did you find the story on this guy? I Googled him, but only found info on a former Mizzou all-American and national champion runner \"Derrick\" Peterson, now a member of that team's staff. Did he come out? The bio lists him as "single." (Maybe he should be in People's "Most Eligible Bachelors" issue, which is featuring several gay men, including Chris from MTV's "Real World," and author Brian Keith Jackson (or so I gathered from a clip on tonight's local news).

If so, I wish bro Peterson all the best in the world, because I know personally that Missouri is not the easiest (nor the worst) place to be an openly gay person, even in comparatively more open and gay-friend St. Louis, Kansas City, and Columbia. (And to be Black and gay there!)

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]

In a similar thread, jaydeenyc wrote:

I was curious to see what Mr. Peterson looked like, but was unable to find anything using the spelling of his name as it appeared in the OUTSPORTS article.

However, I did find this:

Derrick Peterson

I wonder did he change the spelling for his coming out or is it a case of the USATF spelling it the “normal” way?

Please note, the Deric Peterson piece is not in the issue of Genre that has two men and a kid on the cover... (D'uh, maybe the bookstore will let me trade it in?)

The correct spelling is Derrick. Nice guy. If you really follow T&F, you know him. He's always around in the 1/2 mile.

Carl is definitely gay!

"Derrick" is his official name, but he prefers "Deric." Much like he doesn't like labels, he isn't even necessarily fond of the label that is his name

[quote]Originally posted by redsoxbreath:
Please note, the Deric Peterson piece is not in the issue of Genre that has two men and a kid on the cover... (D'uh, maybe the bookstore will let me trade it in?)

---

That's last month's issue.

I agree with you both we are a country of idoits but that does not mean we have to stay that way does it? I like to think that things are changing slowly sure but there a lot better than the way they were 20 years ago. Just look 20 years ago this board did not exist..

I don't think that someone on a team sport would want to deal with coming out. I do think most fans wouldn't have a problem, but, when they are on the road they become fair game for intimidation and ridicule.
Bottom line it's the teammates acceptance that is paramount. Since it becomes a "Trust" issue. Can they trust a gay person in their lockerroom, showers, etc.,?
Keep in mind that a lot of straight men believe that gay men automatically lust after every man, no matter what they look like. Yet, on the other hand they don't feel that all straight woman are attracted to them.
I've played the straight jock and have found myself attracted to a "few" teammates. I have been in situations where I've checked out these
men in all their glory and liked what I saw. But, then again I've seen some guys that I never would have wanted to see naked in all my life.
As gay men, we are attracted to men. And this does pose a problem in the lockerroom. Imagine, if a straight woman was on the football team and undressed and showered with the boys, would this not be an issue for both the men and the woman?

alphamale

I must respectfully disagree with you. How does a guy being attracted to other guys pose a problem just because they share a lockerroom?

I showered with teammates for years and can honestly say there was never a problem. From the people I've spoken with, the majority of the time it's the out gay guy on the team who goes out of his way to make sure there are no signs of impropriety. In most team sports, we view the guys as family. I honestly felt like I was showering with my brothers.

What exactly are they expecting the gay guy to do in the lockerroom or showers? Like the straight guys and their groupies, I would think that all sexual conduct would be outside of a team atmosphere. So frankly, I think this whole trust in the lockerroom or shower business is a bunch of gibberish.

If you have an adult male who is too insecure to deal with sharing a lockerroom with a gay male, that's a personal problem. Unless there is harassment, I don't see a problem. But for those who can't get past their individual insecurities, I have a solution. We're dealing with teams that generate hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Spend a few thousand dollars and put in stalls. If that doesn't work, then they should keep their clothes on and shower at home.

If a straight woman were on a football team and undressed and showered with the boys, I doubt it would be a problem for the straight men. And if it were a problem for her, she has the option of not showering with the men.

Here is what the very out Australian rugby player Ian Roberts said in 1996:

"I take offense at the old locker room argument which assumes a man cannot, in any circumstances, control his urges. Any self-respecting human being can respect the rights and ways of another human being. The idea, then, that gays can convert, or want, heterosexual guys, is ludicrous. We want to play the game, not the field."

I don't believe that groping another individual is a concern here. That would probably never happen in the lockerroom.
The trust that I am referring to is of a brotherhood. Most athletes are heterosexual and the idea of a homosexual in their midst scares the bejesus out of them.
Admitting ones homosexuality would violate that trust. If you can honestly say that not one person ostracized you when you came out, then I can truly believe you feel that it is not a problem.
Incidentally, sports are a business, they are not a barometer for social change and political correctness. Ask the stadium owner to change the lockerroom facilities and watch your ticket prices go up, nothing is for free.
Or the club owner can just trade the individual and claim it has nothing to do with their sexual orientation.

Dear Mr. Alphamale,
In some respects you are correct, and in some respects you are incorrect(remember, this is just my opinion)

I enjoy playing my Hockey 2 days a week with a fun group of guys that also enjoy playing hockey. I generally don't shower at the rink because the showers are really gross, and generally if there isn't a steam room or hot tub to relax in after working out, I can shower at home just as easy. I just started playing hockey, and I guess that you could say this is my first team sport that I have ever played where I feel like I'm part of the team (I quit baseball at 7 or 8, and really sucked at B-ball so I only played 1 year of Heisey) I like playing the sport. We play hard, then drink some beer in the locker room afterward. No competition since we all switch teams(on the ice only) every month or so. I don't even bother telling anyone about my sexuality due to the fact that I only see these guys like twice a week. I've checked a couple of the better looking ones out in the locker room, but I find that after playing a sport with people, or being in a locker room with them a couple of times, the allure wears off and I could really care less what they look like. I just bullshit and have fun with a group of guys that all enjoy the same stuff I do. In this situation comming out and telling them in the middle of a conversation that I like Dudes, would be out of place and not really serve any kind of purpose since noone is really all that close.

Now the difference comes into the picture when you look at pro sports. The people playing on a Pro team practice hours a day togeather. They are in a sense PLAYING togeather for hours and hours, and days and days. Yes, it is just a job in a sense, but on the other hand, it is not just a job, it's a lifestyle. They are constantly depending on one another. They have seen each other naked countless times, and never been aroused. They spend lots of time in the locker room every week, and have never freaked out about Mr. Gay looking at thier winky before, even though they didn't know he was looking. Oh ya, they are also being PAID TO BE THERE. The analogy of a woman in a men's locker room is just plain stupid also. We are men. We have dicks. We all do. It's a fact of nature. Also, Most men have no problem with being naked. Women have a problem with being naked. The inpropriety in the locker room with a woman in it would come from the men looking at the woman not the other way around. I say that straight guys need to have the attitude that I heard from someone recently when asked about the gay in a team sport issue.

"I'm sure I already have, and It wasn't an issue then.

The thing I'm wondering about is this:

Are your opinions on the gay guy in the shower related to your own insecurities about being seen naked? What I mean is this, I find that younger guys these days are WAY more shy about being naked in a locker room than the more mature men. I don't know where it comes from, but even the younger gay guys that I know wear thier bathing suits into the men's only hot tub that is located in the men's locker room in my gym. I have been going to gyms and showering naked my whole life, so I usually go in the buff, but I do find that there are quite a few young guys my age that would never think of dropping their towel to put on their underwear. LOL Just curious. I guess that got kind of off topic.

[quote]Originally posted by alphamale:
The trust that I am referring to is of a brotherhood. Most athletes are heterosexual and the idea of a homosexual in their midst scares the bejesus out of them.

---

So what!! The idea of a black player sharing their locker room didn't sit too well with them at one time either. We got past that and are the better for it.

Why are we as gay men so concerned anymore about how others might feel about us, instead of being honest about who we are and standing up for ourselves? Acceptance would sure be nice, but I don't think we should wait around for it. It will be a long wait if we do.

Amen to the "So what?!" above. To the ballplayer who says "I wouldn't want a gay guy in the locker room" I say "Who gives a f**k what you think? If you want to keep collecting that HUGE paycheck, you'll get your ass in here and PLAY BALL!!"

I really wish I lived in your world where gay people are so powerful that walls come tumbling down when their mandates are expressed.
Where I live some people are in the closet at work because they don't to get fired or they don't tell friends and family they are gay because they don't want to be disowned or alienated.
I was also under the impression that most companies would be leery to endorse (PAY) someone
that may not fit their image. Who knows, maybe some agents and owners are aware of gay athletes but encourage (reward) them to maintain silence to avoid disruptions on the field. Or maybe they are telling the someone to get out there and play because I'm paying you.

[quote]Originally posted by MSUBobcat:

"I find that younger guys these days are WAY more shy about being naked in a locker room than the more mature men.

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younger (maybe under 35 or so ) seem much more modest vs over 35's or so - maybe more of the older guys had group showers in high school - shared a room with more brothers and more were in the military? It doesn't bother me to strut my naked stuff on the way to the shower and it ain't nothin special, believe me!

Things have actually been more relaxed since I got outed at work. Its like there is nothing left to worry about since the door is open & no one seems to care.- to my face at least.

Most athletes are heterosexuals? Statistically speaking , maybe. But just because most are heterosexual does not mean that most would have a problem sharing a lockerroom with a gay teammate.

I think you do a disservice to heterosexuals by assuming that the bejesus would be scared out of them by sharing a lockerroom with a gay guy.There's usually only one or two people who feel uncomfortable and who seem to want to assume the gay guy is trying to check them out. And I say again, their insecurities are their own problems.

I can honestly say that if there was a brotherhood before the teammates find out a fellow teammate is gay, the brotherhood will remain after the revelation. If you're participating in a team sport, you're there to do the job first. There just isn't that big a concern about "sex in the lockerrooms" or "sneaking a peak."

Like MSUBobcat said, once you have seen people naked so many times, what's the big deal? It's like a nice piece of cheesecake. It tastes better when you don't get to eat it every day.

And you've really got to help me out. How on earth does being gay violate the trust of an established brotherhood?

[quote]Originally posted by copman:
since I got outed at work

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I'm not sure I knew about this, what happened? How has it impacted your career?