We have a great review of a book of images of athletes from the early 20th Century, when it was OK to show affection without being labeled. The images alone are worth it. Review written by Eric Anderson, who spoke at the Outsports convention.

Thanks, Jim! And nice review, Coach Gumby. I've been craving this book since you held it up during your presentation ( ) at the convention. Finally, a book that combines my love of sports, history, photography and athletic men hugging each other.

I'll be sure to order my copy through the Outsports/Amazon link provided, and I would encourage others to do the same. (How was that, Jim? wink )

This is a very interesting article. And I hope you all get a chance to read it. This is something I have pondered about for a while now and I am pleased someone has put it in the limelight.

The authors says, "His argument beckons the question of whether identity politics have truly helped liberate the modern day homosexual, or whether we would have been better off never classifying same-sex attraction in the first place."

I believe the modern day homosexual is better of and more liberated today than he/she would have been back in the early 1900's. The liberties that homosexuals experience today like gay unions, domestic partner benefits and so on would never have been allowed back in the day.

However, I agree that classifying same-sex attractions resulted in repercussions that caused men to cease showing outward signs of intimacy with other guys. I'd like to draw a parallel with my experience growing up in another country. I grew up in Africa in a town where homosexuality was virtually unknown. Nobody talked about homosexuality and it was as if it did not exist. However, I remember that men openly showed and shared their intimacies with other men. It was common to see men walking down the street holding hands or a man sitting with an arm draped over another man's shoulder. It was not considered less than masculine or "unclean" but an affirmation of one's friendship to another guy. When I moved to the US, some of my friends who were here already "coached" me on how to interact with other guys. Because in the US there are gays around and you don’t want to be mistaken as one of them… They cautioned me to be careful about how I act and behave lest my actions are misconstrued as being “gay”. I was even told to be careful how I compliment other guys! Because the guy may think I am coming-on to him! I thought it was all so crazy, but I could see their point.

Today in the town I grew up, you will not see men holding hands or draping an arm over another’s shoulder. I believe the society has become aware of homosexuality and men are probably afraid of being thought of as one of “them”.

There is a similar book that I bought my boyfriend for Xmas though not about jocks. It has many pictures of male couples from the 18th and 19th centuries.
I think the difference between then and now that is during the Victorian era there was no "homosexual". Nobody made it a social issue. So for a man to be "friends" with another man was socially seen in another way. I think most were more inclined to turn the other cheek so long as the relationship was kept private and not flaunted. Many people that had these relationships were high society people and werent about to be targets of government who definitely wanted to keep their tax dollars. The only real exception is Oscar Wilde's case, however I think it had more to do with he being a high profile star who got caught up with the wrong person and was accused for media sensation.

Comrades:

I just placed an order for my own copy! Of course, through the Outsports website to the Amazon website!

Another commission rung up for Outsports!

By the time you read this posting, Amazon may be already sold out! There were only 2 copies available at the Amazon website, and yes, I took one! Now there's only one copy left!

After the last one is gone, you will have to wait till Amazon orders more copies!

Mikestead

To Laudun, do you think that Americans in general show less affection to one another? I certainly do. Sure there are gross displays of groping in the malls and at movies, but in general you see so little affection between any two people in this country. I remember hearing of a report comparing French adolescent boys to Americans, and the American boys upon meeting other boys displyed hostility and combativeness to the others; whereas the French showed compatability and affection, caring. I wish I could remember where I heard this study--maybe NPR. So, I don't know if it's a gay thing that Americans show less affection, it's just a wacked societal thing.
One other point, on my drive home yesterday in this very small town, I saw two young Asian ladies walking arm in arm through a parking lot. When's the last time I saw two Americans, gay straight man or woman, doing that? (And I mean American as I guess, White Anlgo Saxon Protestant or any variation thereof.)

Shore,

You asked, "do you think that Americans in general show less affection to one another?".

As compared to the culture/background I came from, I would say yes, American men show less affection to one another. And as compared to other cultures I have seen or been around like for example I lived in Saudi Arabia for a little bit and I remember being amazed at the show of affection between Arab men. I would see men from all strata of society hugging and kissing on the cheeks when greeting each other. When I visited India I saw similar show of affection between men. So going back to the point of the article, I believe you don't see that kind of affection here in the US because men think it is "questionable" behavior.

Browsing Amazon.com for more information on this book, PICTURING MEN: A CENTURY OF MALE RELATIONSHIPS IN EVERYDAY AMERICAN POTOGRAPHY I came across three other titles that explored this same subject:

DEAR FRIENDS: AMERICAN PHOTOGRAPHS OF MEN TOGETHER, 1840-1918
AFFECTIONATE MEN: A PHOTOGRAPHIC HISTORY OF A CENTURY OF MALE COUPLES, 1850-1950
LOVE STORIES: SEX BETWEEN MEN BEFORE HOMOSEXUALITY

Looking at the sample photographs excerpted from these books, I was touched by feelings that moved me deeply. First, how glad these men are to enjoy the comradeship of their friends -- their pride just leaps off the page. Second, how grateful I am that these images are being preserved by gay collectors and historians. Third, how much has been stolen out of the modern-day lives of straight men in American culture, and how little they know it.

Perhaps by some miracle of grace these simple, natural, human gestures of affection between friends will be reclaimed by men in this country. I think gay men in team sports can actually help this process along.

Thanks, Jim and Eric, for another wonderful OUTSPORTS feature.

[ February 28, 2003, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: fielderschoice ]

Intersting conversation about men showing affection. I've noticed the same lack of inhibition between men in many cultures outside the USA.

I think it has more to do with men not being afraid of being mistaken for homosexual than with a gradual change in attitudes over time.

In any time or location where male-to-male affection does not imply homosexuality men are naturally tactile - a necessity of the species according to many anthropologists and pediatricians. Even babies that are not touched - and humans are not the only ones - will develop abnormally.

Perhaps we don't outgrow the need to be touched just as we don't outgrow the need to excercise. What you don't use you lose. We're losing the ability to touch one another, and perhaps worst, some of our ability to relate to each other as humans. Maybe homophobia is tied in with that.

You have to watch how you frame that sentiment. We DO have our oppressions; nevertheless, one cannot be brutally beaten by police (as in Egypt), or murdered in public by the U.S. government, as in Saudi Arabia(even if you are an LGBT anti-government activist), for being interested in same-sex relationships.

[ February 28, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Precisely because homosexuality is so oppressed in those societies, it is assumed that public displays of male-to-male affection are not homosexual.

It may have less to do with perceptions of homosexuality than with a more general discomfort with closeness and touching in Anglo-American culture. We stand farther apart from each other in conversation, and touch less often than people in other cultures. Even among male/female couples, I remember a study where they watched the number of times couples in cafes would touch each other and the numbers varied from 0/hr (London), 2/hr (New York) to something over 30/hr for Rio de Janeiro. Any physical contact is just seen as more intimate in our culture than it is in others.

Also, in some of those societies, public displays of male/female affection -- even something as "innocent" (in our view) as holding hands -- are considered offensive and get very hostile reactions. Also, in some of those societies, the sexes are segregated much of the time (and, in particular, women spend much of their time in all-female environments where they are invisible to men). It's a different world in more ways than one.

Tangent: When outsiders go into these countries (in person or via media) and ignore these customs, it fuels much of the cultural resentment we hear about.

Seph, I ordered my copy today too and have been waiting to do so from the first time I saw that book as well. This is a VERY interesting subject.

Fielderschoice, you should head over to Hartford and check out the exhibit of Marsden Hartley's works at the Wadsworth Atheneum. Good stuff by a gay American Modernist of the early XX century.

This was the one I mentioned, btw. It has some nice pictures.

The U.S. is a British-based culture plus Puritan. Even the Puritans could not abide British liberalism. That context explains American caution in behaviour.

New Zealand is British but with less interest in religion. Therefore, behaviour is humanist-based rather than religion-based. The men bond by sports, such as rugby and with no apology. When I moved here it was odd to hear guys invite me to their sports clubs (harriers, touch rugby, surf club, etc.) because they said it was a good way to meet guys and socialise.

I agree that the open use of the word "homosexual" has recently repressed men from showing casual affection. But, like all changes in science and culture there is an external stress then return to equilibrium. People want touch and they will have it. We are in a period of acclimatisation, a cultural El Nino.

But several mates here don't know what I'm on about when I talk up gay differences--I used to think they were afraid or judgmental but instead, they weren't interested and didn't care.

What a fascinating subject. Coach Gumby's article is very interesting and a great tease for the book.

Personally, my str8 friends and I hug all the time - and not those quick uncomfortable typically male to male hugs. While Americans in general are certainly prudish and judgemental when it comes to sexuality, etc., I think it depends on where you are and who you are - when it comes to affection, etc.

Plus, it's important not to get nostalgic or to falsly pine for a past where male to male affection was more common and accepted (not that anyone is doing that here) since those were also times where two men couldn't fall in love and experience the kind of open relationship available these days. It was all about secrets and lies - the freedom to openly express affection doesn't necessarily offput the often torturous need to stay closeted. There are many layers to this subject: some cultural, some political and some just about the evolution of sexuality in America and the world.

Interesting. I just went to the annual HRC dinner for the Philadelphia chapter last night and was struck by the number of people who greeted same-sex friends by kissing on the lips. Perhaps I've missed something but I thought that that was rare, at least in the past couple of decades, even in the gay community - a hygiene precaution due to the prevalence of AIDS perhaps?.

Maybe with the near-universal availability of HIV therapy, the reticence has abated.

Personally I've never avoided a lip-kiss from someone of the same sex unless one of us obviously had a cold or other sign of infectiousness - that included hospitalized friends who have since died of AIDS.

Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean was the special guess and what struck me most about his speech was how comfortable he was with the language concerning gay issues and with gay people. It seemed very natural and unaffected - gladhanding and embracing without a second thought.

I think equality for gays will take a huge leap when we have a president who is personally that comfortable with us and has the conviction of his/her beliefs.

Very interesting discussions. I'm a gay man, but I spend a lot of time with women (of whatever sexuality) and am very physically affectionate with them. I also am physically affectionate with gay men who are my friends. I tend not to go so far with straight men, since I'm not sure how they'll respond.

Yesterday, a straight male friend asked me point blank, do you think those women who you hug and hold are so relaxed and affectionate around you because they know you're gay? I replied maybe so, but that most of them wanted to be held, shown attention, caressed, treated decently as opposed to as a piece of meat. I suggested he try it, without making the sexual component foremost. He said he'd try to do so (though I think as a prelude to "scoring").

Most human beings want and need touching, affection, closeness. Our culture, which promotes sex relentlessly, also has, as someone mentioned, its British Puritan past hanging over it, so it's simultaneously sex-phobic. Just do it, but don't do it. Get UR freak on, but don't be a sex freak. Have sex in the city and lots of it, be queer as folk, only don't get blowjobs (especially if you're married and in the White House...).

I keep a wide berth around my students or any subordinates, though.

The first time I went to Paris I was taken with how the French (yes, those hated obdurate anti-American Latin people) showed each other affection. I can remember seeing this one young lesbian couple spinning each other about, kissing, right in front of that Pei Pyramid at the Louvre, and feeling elation that two people could enjoy each other like this--that is, people other than straights. I saw a lot of that in France, especially Paris. In fact I've noticed the constant touching and affection when I was in Brazil and other parts of the world that weren't predominantly Anglo or British dominated (though India, Nigeria, etc., were ruled by the British, so other cultural factors and variables are in play). I once saw two guys standing on streetcorner in Bahia with their arms draped around each others' waists. Not only were they beautiful, but I had to rethink my assumptions, because I immediately registered--wow, look how open these gay men are in this poor city, when in fact they might not have been gay.

The British of course have the reputation for being "cold," but my few experiences in London have belied this. They also seem to like fun, especially sexual fun, and have a longstanding reputation for known for what we would consider "perversions." Also, homosexuality is known as the "English vice." Finally, they, like the French, Brazilians, Italians, Spaniards, etc., seem to deal better with all kinds of body types, teeth, looks, you name it. The fanaticism with muscles, large breasts, thinness, etc. is decidedly American. It's really bizarre....

A late friend who spent much time in Ghana, Mauritania, Guinea, and Senegal told me that male-male affection was quite open, so much so that he was often astonished at how natural it was and how hard it was for him to get used to it.