From today's NY Post. Take it for what it's worth:
Neil Travis/Page Six column from the New York Post on to you. The link is--
http://www.nypost.com/gossip/travis.htm
May 20, 2002 -- In and out with the Mets
IN what could be seen as a pre-emptory strike, Mets manager Bobby Valentine says that Major League baseball is "probably ready for an openly gay player."
Valentine makes the remark, seemingly out of the blue, in an upcoming interview with the June/July issue of Details magazine. "The players are a diverse enough group now that I think they could handle (a gay teammate)," he says.
While the manager's statement is imminently sensible and unlikely to disturb any of his young players, it could roil some traditional Shea Stadium fans. (I can hear the chant of "switch hitter" already.)
More to the point, some may think that Valentine is getting in first, before one of his big guns is outed. There is a persistent rumor around town that one Mets star who spends a lot of time with pretty models in clubs is actually gay and has started to think about declaring his sexual orientation.
The rumor even goes so far as to say that the player and a still-closeted local TV personality recently purchased a house together in a ritzy New York suburb. (I've made a cursory check of the real estate rolls in that suburb and can't find any documentation of the rumor. But even if it's all nonsense, the story is out there and gaining momentum by the day.)
The other fascinating thing about Valentine's statement to Details is that it shows how far he's come in the big city. When Bobby came up to manage the Mets, he was, to be blunt, a bit of a redneck, a man perhaps more like a John Rocker than a crusader for gay rights. I think we all should be proud of him for taking such a principled and sensible stand.
Full Version: Gay Met Ready to Come Out?
And it doesn't appear that the guy is dating Brendan Lemon!
[quote]The other fascinating thing about Valentine's statement to Details is that it shows how far he's come in the big city. When Bobby came up to manage the Mets, he was, to be blunt, a bit of a redneck, a man perhaps more like a John Rocker than a crusader for gay rights. I think we all should be proud of him for taking such a principled and sensible stand.
Usually, this kind of change in stance results from personal contact. Of course, it doesn't necessarily have to be a player, it could be somebody outside of baseball. I think a player could come out under certain circumstances:
1) they have the support of management, which is likely to be, if anything, more homophobic than the players for reasons of generation. This is a positive sign for Mets management, though.
2) they have to be in a reasonably gay-friendly city (New York would certainly qualify)
3) the strongest personalities/leaders on the team can't be extremely homophobic
4) the player has to be willing to take a lot of crap
The informal poll after the Billy Bean thing indicated that about half of ballplayers would have no problem with it, suggesting that baseball players are not, as a group, any more or less homophobic than the rest of society. The stickiest thing for the non-acceptors was the shower issue. We all know it's silly and the player isn't going to see anything new or suddenly start staring at everybody, but it does bother people. If it were me, I'd probably make an arrangement to shower at a different time. It's kind of a dumb, insulting concession to make, but if it'll smooth over some problems, it might be worth it.
Usually, this kind of change in stance results from personal contact. Of course, it doesn't necessarily have to be a player, it could be somebody outside of baseball. I think a player could come out under certain circumstances:
1) they have the support of management, which is likely to be, if anything, more homophobic than the players for reasons of generation. This is a positive sign for Mets management, though.
2) they have to be in a reasonably gay-friendly city (New York would certainly qualify)
3) the strongest personalities/leaders on the team can't be extremely homophobic
4) the player has to be willing to take a lot of crap
The informal poll after the Billy Bean thing indicated that about half of ballplayers would have no problem with it, suggesting that baseball players are not, as a group, any more or less homophobic than the rest of society. The stickiest thing for the non-acceptors was the shower issue. We all know it's silly and the player isn't going to see anything new or suddenly start staring at everybody, but it does bother people. If it were me, I'd probably make an arrangement to shower at a different time. It's kind of a dumb, insulting concession to make, but if it'll smooth over some problems, it might be worth it.
It's NOT Piazza.
It's Alomar.
It's Alomar.
[quote]Originally posted by Jerzoid:
It's NOT Piazza.
It's Alomar.
This is an interesting theory/rumour (or do you have inside knowledge Jerzoid?). I remember when Alomar was a Jay, he used to live in the SkyDome hotel. One time they intervied some of the maids, asking if fans were always trying to bother the star players. The maids said something to the effect of "Alomar is a very private person. And he likes to spend his time with his friend." That stuck in my mind because they said "friend" and not "girlfriend" or "friends."
It's NOT Piazza.
It's Alomar.
This is an interesting theory/rumour (or do you have inside knowledge Jerzoid?). I remember when Alomar was a Jay, he used to live in the SkyDome hotel. One time they intervied some of the maids, asking if fans were always trying to bother the star players. The maids said something to the effect of "Alomar is a very private person. And he likes to spend his time with his friend." That stuck in my mind because they said "friend" and not "girlfriend" or "friends."
One of the rumors that made the rounds at the time of the infamous Alomar spitting episode was that Alomar went off when the umpire directed the word "faggot" at him. That said, I don't think he plays for the Pink Team.
Also, kudos to Mike Piazza for handling the situation so well. I have a new-found respect for him.
Also, kudos to Mike Piazza for handling the situation so well. I have a new-found respect for him.
Could this have something to do with why he & Mary Pierce broke up?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by canmark:
[QB]
This is an interesting theory/rumour (or do you have inside knowledge Jerzoid?).
Canmark, all will be revealed in my soon to be published memoir, "Baseball Players I Have Slept With (and I Have Explicit Photos to Prove It)."
But seriously, a co-worker of mine has a friend whose wife is a stewardess and she witnessed Alomar and his "friend" getting very playful & frisky on a flight sometime last year. I know, I know, I know that I've just violated a jillion Outsports rules about salacious rumor, 4th-party hearsay and sheer innuendo, and I apologize upfront.
Also, I've heard Piazza's apartment-doorman call in to Howard Stern and say that he constantly sees Mike coming home late at night with 1, 2 or 3 girls at a time. Now, what he's doing with them is another story, but I figured I'd pass on more unsubstantiated gossip.
And there's more: does anyone remember this Michael Musto blind item from February?
"What New York ballplayer never strikes out while donning drag and (separately) having Latin boys service his trouser bat?"
[QB]
This is an interesting theory/rumour (or do you have inside knowledge Jerzoid?).
Canmark, all will be revealed in my soon to be published memoir, "Baseball Players I Have Slept With (and I Have Explicit Photos to Prove It)."
But seriously, a co-worker of mine has a friend whose wife is a stewardess and she witnessed Alomar and his "friend" getting very playful & frisky on a flight sometime last year. I know, I know, I know that I've just violated a jillion Outsports rules about salacious rumor, 4th-party hearsay and sheer innuendo, and I apologize upfront.
Also, I've heard Piazza's apartment-doorman call in to Howard Stern and say that he constantly sees Mike coming home late at night with 1, 2 or 3 girls at a time. Now, what he's doing with them is another story, but I figured I'd pass on more unsubstantiated gossip.
And there's more: does anyone remember this Michael Musto blind item from February?
"What New York ballplayer never strikes out while donning drag and (separately) having Latin boys service his trouser bat?"
If true, it might give Brendan Lemon some credibility. I wonder if the player from this blind item is the same guy Lemon is referring to? Or is this just a lucky coincidence for Lemon?
Alomar doesn't really fit the profile, unless you consider Cleveland on the east coast. And he's too big a star.
I can't wait for the day when a gay baseball player has to defend his gayness to the national press! I get so sick of heteros having to go on record as being straight...for whatever reason I feel somewhat insulted that these guys come out of the closet as straight...perhaps because the undercurrent of such a revelation is that there is something wrong with being gay. I, throughout my life, have wondered why it would be so necessary for a person of prominence to come out...and now I know why! I'm sick of the speculation, and I'm sick of the constant need for these people to defend heterosexuality as a "normal" way of life!
I can only remember one other time where an athlete had to publicly announce that he was straight. I think it was in the autumn of "87, I had just moved to San Francisco, and there was a player on the niners who people were talking about being gay, he had some kind of news conference and said he wasn't , and then people started to defend his right to be, which seemed to make him even more strident in his denial that he was. It went 'round and 'round for a while. Anyone know who I'm talking about?
I'll take a shot...Rice or Young?
Roberto Alomar with Cleveland? He's a Met.
Alomar link
Notice in the Personal section that he's 34 and single and "resides in Bradenton, FL and shares a home in Salinas, PR with his brother, Sandy."
If Roberto is gay, there's a little irony that he's from "Ponce" in Puerto Rico. "Ponce" is a British slang word for gay.
FYI - there's a parallel thread going on in the "Hot Jock Talk" board.
Piazza link
[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Lots-of-us ]
Alomar link
Notice in the Personal section that he's 34 and single and "resides in Bradenton, FL and shares a home in Salinas, PR with his brother, Sandy."
If Roberto is gay, there's a little irony that he's from "Ponce" in Puerto Rico. "Ponce" is a British slang word for gay.
FYI - there's a parallel thread going on in the "Hot Jock Talk" board.
Piazza link
[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Lots-of-us ]
This is, by the way, the second time Piazza has defended his hetero-ness!
Comments by Vance Wilson of the Mets, excerpted from this NY Post article:
[quote] "You didn't want to see something like that happen to anyone, but if you're gonna pick one guy to handle it, you're almost glad he was the one," Wilson said. "Because Mike handled it the best you can handle it."
Wilson also questioned why Piazza drew a bull's-eye, considering all he has done for New York.
"It's the biggest disgrace," Wilson said. "It [ticks] me off. To make a personal attack on the guy for no reason is one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen."
Wilson cited the fact that Piazza is a regular churchgoer and always has tried to uphold his wholesome image.
"This one goes too far," Wilson said. "He lives his life morally right and isn't off fooling around like other superstars."
A) Who the hell is Vance Wilson?
2) Whoever he is, he's on my enemies list.
[quote] "You didn't want to see something like that happen to anyone, but if you're gonna pick one guy to handle it, you're almost glad he was the one," Wilson said. "Because Mike handled it the best you can handle it."
Wilson also questioned why Piazza drew a bull's-eye, considering all he has done for New York.
"It's the biggest disgrace," Wilson said. "It [ticks] me off. To make a personal attack on the guy for no reason is one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen."
Wilson cited the fact that Piazza is a regular churchgoer and always has tried to uphold his wholesome image.
"This one goes too far," Wilson said. "He lives his life morally right and isn't off fooling around like other superstars."
A) Who the hell is Vance Wilson?
2) Whoever he is, he's on my enemies list.
"The stickiest thing for the non-acceptors was the shower issue. We all know it's silly and the player isn't going to see anything new or suddenly start staring at everybody, but it does bother people. If it were me, I'd probably make an arrangement to shower at a different time. It's kind of a dumb, insulting concession to make, but if it'll smooth over some problems, it might be worth it."
To me this a ridiculous theory and only perpetuates the myth about homosexuals that we are all sex craved perverts. Whether you are in an office or a locker room, if a fellow employee is caught leering or staring or making unwanted advances, it is called sexual harrassment and is against the law. That person should be fired. To think that just because an athlete has come out and will all of a sudden feels the freedom to act in this way is demeaning to all of us. I understand that the straight players do not know any better and their masculinity is at issue here, but hey he has been showering with this guy for who knows how long and countless others that he didn't know about. So what has changed now that he knows. To me the issue is not that the athlete has come out, it's the fact that these straight athletes don't understand that coming out is not about sex (I am sure he is getting plenty of it), but about the acceptance and peace of mind that comes with it.
To me this a ridiculous theory and only perpetuates the myth about homosexuals that we are all sex craved perverts. Whether you are in an office or a locker room, if a fellow employee is caught leering or staring or making unwanted advances, it is called sexual harrassment and is against the law. That person should be fired. To think that just because an athlete has come out and will all of a sudden feels the freedom to act in this way is demeaning to all of us. I understand that the straight players do not know any better and their masculinity is at issue here, but hey he has been showering with this guy for who knows how long and countless others that he didn't know about. So what has changed now that he knows. To me the issue is not that the athlete has come out, it's the fact that these straight athletes don't understand that coming out is not about sex (I am sure he is getting plenty of it), but about the acceptance and peace of mind that comes with it.
And didn't Alomar just break off his multi-year "engagement" with tennis player Mary Pierce? I always wondered about what was going on in that relationship. You don't really hear straight couples referring to themselves as being "engaged" for years but never getting around to tying the knot. If they are a couple, so be it. But when they claim to be "engaged" it always smacks me of trying to hard to find cover.
Vance Wilson is the Mets' exceptional backup catcher (good defense), and clearly a bit of a dum-dum. *I* go to church too, Vance...
The "east coast" remark above: at the time Lemon described his player, Alomar was with Cleveland.
The Mets' TV coverage has caught Robbie making some faces in the dugout this year... eerily similar to some I dimly recall seeing in Chelsea bars when some queen was agitated that I reached across him to put my empty glass on the bar.
Isn't Piazza's het declaration ubndercut by his remark that he's really excited about Fleet Week?
(yes, joke)
The "east coast" remark above: at the time Lemon described his player, Alomar was with Cleveland.
The Mets' TV coverage has caught Robbie making some faces in the dugout this year... eerily similar to some I dimly recall seeing in Chelsea bars when some queen was agitated that I reached across him to put my empty glass on the bar.
Isn't Piazza's het declaration ubndercut by his remark that he's really excited about Fleet Week?
(yes, joke)
I found an interesting article by Steve Perry (sports columnist for a weekly Minnesota newspaper) about Alomar's spitting incident, written not long after it happened (in 1996, apparently).
[quote] THE MOST PROTRACTED drama of baseball's post-season, now coming to what promises to be an anticlimactic ending, was the incident just before the playoffs involving Baltimore Orioles second baseman Roberto Alomar and American League umpire John Hirschbeck. The sports pages have carried on in an entirely jaundiced and predictable manner about those uppity players. But those who saw the tape will recall that Alomar charged Hirschbeck and spat on him only after Hirschbeck said something as Alomar was walking away. I received the following e-mail from my friend Dave Marsh last week:
"Re: our discussion of Roberto Alomar's reasons to spit: Today's NY Post reports that Hirschbeck called him a 'fag motherf**ker.' The Post tries to make it sound like the problem is that baseball doesn't want to embarrass Hirschbeck and add to the scandal.
"On the basis of Jann Wenner et al., I would say that there is a more important reason--it's one thing for there to be an out ballplayer. But the best player in the ML might be gay? Baseball can't deal with that. And neither can the Post or the rest of the sporting press.
"I feel badly for Alomar if he's really living in the closet. But it does suggest that the real criminal here, the fag-baiting ump, is going unpunished. As usual. As the wicked witch said when the water hit her, 'What a world! What a world!'"
Link to article - Alomar section at the very end
[quote] THE MOST PROTRACTED drama of baseball's post-season, now coming to what promises to be an anticlimactic ending, was the incident just before the playoffs involving Baltimore Orioles second baseman Roberto Alomar and American League umpire John Hirschbeck. The sports pages have carried on in an entirely jaundiced and predictable manner about those uppity players. But those who saw the tape will recall that Alomar charged Hirschbeck and spat on him only after Hirschbeck said something as Alomar was walking away. I received the following e-mail from my friend Dave Marsh last week:
"Re: our discussion of Roberto Alomar's reasons to spit: Today's NY Post reports that Hirschbeck called him a 'fag motherf**ker.' The Post tries to make it sound like the problem is that baseball doesn't want to embarrass Hirschbeck and add to the scandal.
"On the basis of Jann Wenner et al., I would say that there is a more important reason--it's one thing for there to be an out ballplayer. But the best player in the ML might be gay? Baseball can't deal with that. And neither can the Post or the rest of the sporting press.
"I feel badly for Alomar if he's really living in the closet. But it does suggest that the real criminal here, the fag-baiting ump, is going unpunished. As usual. As the wicked witch said when the water hit her, 'What a world! What a world!'"
Link to article - Alomar section at the very end
Alomar is a switch hitter, and I remember someone alluded to that in another thread. He's also a terrific player and a Latino, two positive things for his coming out if he's the one.
i think it's keith hernandez...i hope!
Who said anything about him being a Mets player just because Valintine made the statement? I'm not saying either way. I'm not guessing who it is. Lets wait and see when and who. I mean the whole gay world is jumping around all excited. Very embarrassing. Relax, get on with your own life. Remember whats important in these times. And above all, get over it already, he's mine and I'm not giving him up!!
Let's face it, no matter what is said and no matter how many media-bandwagons people jump onto the public is not ready for out athletes. Lesbians in LPGA and the WNBA are smirked over (how many straight guys do you know who wouldn't 'watch') but every sentence alluding to them just sort of wanders off....
However, mention that you might have a gay man on the ball field and everyone starts tightening their jockstraps and calling up Jesse Helms.
These guys with their "wouldn't be comfy in the shower" crack me up, who's gonna tap 'em on the shoulder and say, "Hey, dude, you've been showering with 'em for years, ya moron"?
Anyways, at least Piazza didn't make a jerk of himself in denying the rumors....but, my favorite nickname for him for ages has been "MyGayPizza"...
However, mention that you might have a gay man on the ball field and everyone starts tightening their jockstraps and calling up Jesse Helms.
These guys with their "wouldn't be comfy in the shower" crack me up, who's gonna tap 'em on the shoulder and say, "Hey, dude, you've been showering with 'em for years, ya moron"?
Anyways, at least Piazza didn't make a jerk of himself in denying the rumors....but, my favorite nickname for him for ages has been "MyGayPizza"...
Look, I'm not Gay..and you really have to understand that straight guys do not want to be washing their jocks and dressing/undressing in front of Gay dudes....you can blow this off but that's your choice. Yah, I know there are Gay guys there now but that unfortunately is unavoidable.....if a Gay male athelete outs on a team then he has to realize that some of the players may not want to share a locker room/shower room w/ him any longer. The Gay player should be banned from the locker room area and have private quarters....perhaps the ladies room?
Not to mention the obvious here but...
If you spend six months a year living in and out of hotel rooms with 24 other guys you're going to know about their personal lives. Period.
You think that team athletes don't know when someone is gay???? Be real, this isn't high school nor is it the military, you don't get kicked out for sexual orientation.
Also, the fact that we aren't bombarded with gay athletes being outted by their teammates says alot about the level of professionalism and tolerance that ALREADY exists. It's mainstream America that has the problem, not the players.
p.s.
Joey, if you're not gay, whattaya doin' here?
If you spend six months a year living in and out of hotel rooms with 24 other guys you're going to know about their personal lives. Period.
You think that team athletes don't know when someone is gay???? Be real, this isn't high school nor is it the military, you don't get kicked out for sexual orientation.
Also, the fact that we aren't bombarded with gay athletes being outted by their teammates says alot about the level of professionalism and tolerance that ALREADY exists. It's mainstream America that has the problem, not the players.
p.s.
Joey, if you're not gay, whattaya doin' here?
>>>Joey, if you're not gay, whattaya doin' here?<<<
I found your site from a link at a newspaper article...and I wanted to respond to comments here but couldnt unless I joined.....that's what.
I found your site from a link at a newspaper article...and I wanted to respond to comments here but couldnt unless I joined.....that's what.
Since it's "unavoidable" that gays are "washing their jocks and dressing/undressing in front" of you, how has it been so far for you Joey?
If the only difference is that they're open about being gay, how does that impact you? Clearly they've been very much under control around you and everyone else to the point you're not even aware who they are.
Maybe everyone would be better off, including you, if YOU were the one banned and moved to the ladies room until you can control yourself.
If the only difference is that they're open about being gay, how does that impact you? Clearly they've been very much under control around you and everyone else to the point you're not even aware who they are.
Maybe everyone would be better off, including you, if YOU were the one banned and moved to the ladies room until you can control yourself.
Brent, you said: If the only difference is that they're open about being gay, how does that impact you? Clearly they've been very much under control around you and everyone else to the point you're not even aware who they are.<<<<
This has no impact on my statement. I was not commenting on their behaviour, nor was i questioning it...this has more to do w/ allowing straight men to feel comfortable being nude in the shower/locker room. Once one knows somebody is Gay it changes everything and a hetero male has the right not to want to be nude in front of a Gay man. It's the same line of thinking that allows for a mens room and a ladies room...the right to privacy is not only understood it's expected.
This has no impact on my statement. I was not commenting on their behaviour, nor was i questioning it...this has more to do w/ allowing straight men to feel comfortable being nude in the shower/locker room. Once one knows somebody is Gay it changes everything and a hetero male has the right not to want to be nude in front of a Gay man. It's the same line of thinking that allows for a mens room and a ladies room...the right to privacy is not only understood it's expected.
Joey, It's dobtful that you have been a member of a college or professional sports team. I say this having been part of both. There are other gay players out there who everyone on the team is aware of but for the most part they do not care. It's called being a "team". You back up the guys on your side, you don't share secrets, you don't bring club house business outside of those doors: those are just the rules of the game.
When the player does go public with this issue, things will change slightly because the issue is now out of the clubhouse, this will prompt some players to publically denounce the player so they are not "guilty by association". I do believe when the first player does come out it will be a team decision.
When the player does go public with this issue, things will change slightly because the issue is now out of the clubhouse, this will prompt some players to publically denounce the player so they are not "guilty by association". I do believe when the first player does come out it will be a team decision.
If someone wants to be private, whether it's from teammates, reporters, towelboys, managers, trainers, coaches, or out gay men--then they'll have to figure out how to obtain whatever level of privacy they feel they must have.
The rest will just continue to ignore others as they go about doing their business, if they don't enjoy the interaction.
The rest will just continue to ignore others as they go about doing their business, if they don't enjoy the interaction.
Joey,
The point is you're already comfortable in the locker room, or on the court, or in a restaurant, or at work, or at school. The only difference being out makes is that you're aware of a person's orientation...If you were comfortable before, why wouldn't you be comfortable after learning that? People aren't suddenly gay just because they tell you, their behavior has been the same all along, only now you're aware of it. That puts you on the spot. As the straight guy in the locker room you have to make sure that no one suspects you, right? Whatever, man. Believe me, I'd wager on that you where never a suspect in the first place...But aside from that, Baseball has been played for well over 100 years and, God willing, will be played for 100 more and I have yet to hear about anyone, pro or otherwise, whining about with whom they share the showers. A player being open about his or her sexuality doesn't turn a locker room into a bathhouse. Learn from Reggie White, intolerance doesn't earn you brownie points in the world of professional sports...Didn't some folks have some very similar conversations when black players were admitted into professional sports? Seems like a long time ago, doesn't it?
The point is you're already comfortable in the locker room, or on the court, or in a restaurant, or at work, or at school. The only difference being out makes is that you're aware of a person's orientation...If you were comfortable before, why wouldn't you be comfortable after learning that? People aren't suddenly gay just because they tell you, their behavior has been the same all along, only now you're aware of it. That puts you on the spot. As the straight guy in the locker room you have to make sure that no one suspects you, right? Whatever, man. Believe me, I'd wager on that you where never a suspect in the first place...But aside from that, Baseball has been played for well over 100 years and, God willing, will be played for 100 more and I have yet to hear about anyone, pro or otherwise, whining about with whom they share the showers. A player being open about his or her sexuality doesn't turn a locker room into a bathhouse. Learn from Reggie White, intolerance doesn't earn you brownie points in the world of professional sports...Didn't some folks have some very similar conversations when black players were admitted into professional sports? Seems like a long time ago, doesn't it?
Protistdog, you said: The point is you're already comfortable in the locker room, or on the court, or in a restaurant, or at work, or at school. The only difference being out makes is that you're aware of a person's orientation. <<<
Yah, well, as soon as I become aware or suspect a person is Gay I become uncomfortable...I know you think that's ridiculous but all I can tell you is when i'm dressing or showering I'd like to think that everyone I'm with has the same sexual orientation...why is that so strange???
Yah, well, as soon as I become aware or suspect a person is Gay I become uncomfortable...I know you think that's ridiculous but all I can tell you is when i'm dressing or showering I'd like to think that everyone I'm with has the same sexual orientation...why is that so strange???
[quote] this has more to do w/ allowing straight men to feel comfortable being nude in the shower/locker room. Once one knows somebody is Gay it changes everything and a hetero male has the right not to want to be nude in front of a Gay man.
A hetero male has the right not to be nude in front of a gay man...true that his is right. But what about the Gay man that has earned his right to be on the team?
I think this just proves the point that most hetero males, believe that every gay man wants to "Gawk" at him and given the chance, will want to "jump his bones." This is certainly not the case, Joey do you check out every Female that crosses your line of sight? I highly doubt it.
A hetero male has the right not to be nude in front of a gay man...true that his is right. But what about the Gay man that has earned his right to be on the team?
I think this just proves the point that most hetero males, believe that every gay man wants to "Gawk" at him and given the chance, will want to "jump his bones." This is certainly not the case, Joey do you check out every Female that crosses your line of sight? I highly doubt it.
Joey, it isn't strange for you to assume that... you're a straight guy, it's perfectly normal for you to feel uncomfortable if you think someone's gay. The thing to do is ask yourself why? (NO, I am NOT hinting around about insecurities, I do discuss things fairly) You go into a gay bar, yeah, you might get groped...but in a locker room? I doubt it. Nobody wants to get beat up or insulted or whatever...Life's too short to worry about the guy standing next to you. People are who and what they are. Pro ball players, housewives, gay, straight, whatever; whether or not they choose to announce to the world their personal lives is their choice. You have a choice as well, you can turn around and walk away.
Joey:
Welcome to the board. I hope you will continute to visit and see that we are just a bunch of guys that enjoy Sports and share a common bond because we're gay. I think that you will enjoy joining in on the conversations; especially during football season.
Running is my primary exercise activity. I have been blessed with a running group of 10 or so people. Not everyone shows up everyday, but there is always someone there. When you are out on the road running mile after mile, you become very close and share very personal information. When you share something with a running buddy that you want to go no further than the group, you say "road talk" and it is understood that it stays just among us. It has been a wonderful therapy tool and let me tell you we talk about everything. The main thing is, we are there for each other. (by the way, I am the only gay member of the group and EVERY ONE of them know).
The baseball team is the same way. Your teammates know you better than your spouse and family. You share the most intimate things with them and it stays there. So, yeah, they know there are gay players and, apparently, they are supportive. It's just not a big deal.
[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]
Welcome to the board. I hope you will continute to visit and see that we are just a bunch of guys that enjoy Sports and share a common bond because we're gay. I think that you will enjoy joining in on the conversations; especially during football season.
Running is my primary exercise activity. I have been blessed with a running group of 10 or so people. Not everyone shows up everyday, but there is always someone there. When you are out on the road running mile after mile, you become very close and share very personal information. When you share something with a running buddy that you want to go no further than the group, you say "road talk" and it is understood that it stays just among us. It has been a wonderful therapy tool and let me tell you we talk about everything. The main thing is, we are there for each other. (by the way, I am the only gay member of the group and EVERY ONE of them know).
The baseball team is the same way. Your teammates know you better than your spouse and family. You share the most intimate things with them and it stays there. So, yeah, they know there are gay players and, apparently, they are supportive. It's just not a big deal.
[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]
[quote]Originally posted by joeyfromjersey:
as soon as I become aware or suspect a person is Gay I become uncomfortable...I know you think that's ridiculous but all I can tell you is when i'm dressing or showering I'd like to think that everyone I'm with has the same sexual orientation...why is that so strange???
Yeah -- from my viewpoint it is ridiculous - what are you fearful of -- you're gonna "cave in"? Come on. There's a group of guys at the gym I work out with nearly every morning: 4 straight-and-married, 2 of us gay. The straight guys have no problem down in the locker room, undressing, showering, shaving ...
as soon as I become aware or suspect a person is Gay I become uncomfortable...I know you think that's ridiculous but all I can tell you is when i'm dressing or showering I'd like to think that everyone I'm with has the same sexual orientation...why is that so strange???
Yeah -- from my viewpoint it is ridiculous - what are you fearful of -- you're gonna "cave in"? Come on. There's a group of guys at the gym I work out with nearly every morning: 4 straight-and-married, 2 of us gay. The straight guys have no problem down in the locker room, undressing, showering, shaving ...
Hey Aub,
Don't forget, there are a few of us gals on here as well.
And Joey, just because I like sports doesn't mean I look like a linebacker and act like a p.o.'d gorilla on steroids! I think I look more like a wide receiver and act like Scully, not to toot my own horn or anything...
Don't forget, there are a few of us gals on here as well.
And Joey, just because I like sports doesn't mean I look like a linebacker and act like a p.o.'d gorilla on steroids! I think I look more like a wide receiver and act like Scully, not to toot my own horn or anything...
Look, here's my take as best I can say it.
I do not want to infringe on the rights of anyone, Gay or not. However, I just think that while what you say is most likely true, about the team knowing a fellow player is Gay...that if there is even 'one' player who feels uncomfortable w/ a Gay player sharing the shower/locker room, that that Gay player should not be permitted there....I know that sounds unfair but I stand by it...anyway, i'm on my way out to see a minor league game in Lakewood as I speak so later....
I do not want to infringe on the rights of anyone, Gay or not. However, I just think that while what you say is most likely true, about the team knowing a fellow player is Gay...that if there is even 'one' player who feels uncomfortable w/ a Gay player sharing the shower/locker room, that that Gay player should not be permitted there....I know that sounds unfair but I stand by it...anyway, i'm on my way out to see a minor league game in Lakewood as I speak so later....
Well, at least the kid is honest and didn't resort to childish name-calling or other buffoonish behavior...
On a side note, a local sportscaster here, George Michael, covered the story last night, basically making fun of the NYC tabloids making such a big story of it. That was followed by the news anchor, Paul Vance, just shaking his head and saying -- "why are they worried about that -- it's his batting average they should be concerned with"
Well, at least someone has their priorities straight...
Bucky--
I saw that last night. Michael was almost embarrassed to cover the story. I thought it was pretty telling.
I saw that last night. Michael was almost embarrassed to cover the story. I thought it was pretty telling.
I think straight guys don't give themselves enough credit. I didn't hear Jim Rome's show, but I read Cyd's review of it. It's disappointing to hear that Rome and Billy Beane think that MLB can't handle it.
There are PLENTY of straight men who are totally cool with gay men. And while initially the out gay player might cause a "distraction," it'll all blow over. The first black, the first Jew, the first latin, Asian, the first gay...
As for the fans, look how the fans reacted to John Rocker. The fans are more politically correct than people may want to give them credit for.
I agree with some of the posters above, the players and coaches know who is or who might be gay. You can't work that closely with people and not know who has a wife/girlfriend and who doesn't.
I think what Bobby Valentine said will turn out to be a good thing...
There are PLENTY of straight men who are totally cool with gay men. And while initially the out gay player might cause a "distraction," it'll all blow over. The first black, the first Jew, the first latin, Asian, the first gay...
As for the fans, look how the fans reacted to John Rocker. The fans are more politically correct than people may want to give them credit for.
I agree with some of the posters above, the players and coaches know who is or who might be gay. You can't work that closely with people and not know who has a wife/girlfriend and who doesn't.
I think what Bobby Valentine said will turn out to be a good thing...
[quote]Originally posted by joeyfromjersey:
Look, I'm not Gay..and you really have to understand that straight guys do not want to be washing their jocks and dressing/undressing in front of Gay dudes....you can blow this off but that's your choice. Yah, I know there are Gay guys there now but that unfortunately is unavoidable.....if a Gay male athelete outs on a team then he has to realize that some of the players may not want to share a locker room/shower room w/ him any longer. The Gay player should be banned from the locker room area and have private quarters....perhaps the ladies room?
Welcome to the board joeyfromjersey. I just sent you an e-mail through the address in your profile. We can talk if you like.
Look, I'm not Gay..and you really have to understand that straight guys do not want to be washing their jocks and dressing/undressing in front of Gay dudes....you can blow this off but that's your choice. Yah, I know there are Gay guys there now but that unfortunately is unavoidable.....if a Gay male athelete outs on a team then he has to realize that some of the players may not want to share a locker room/shower room w/ him any longer. The Gay player should be banned from the locker room area and have private quarters....perhaps the ladies room?
Welcome to the board joeyfromjersey. I just sent you an e-mail through the address in your profile. We can talk if you like.
Joey, First thanks for your input, and for keeping it in a civil tone. Welcome aboard!!
My question... Would you feel totally uncomfortable in a locker room full of ugly fat, naked women? The similarity to me is that they would be attracted to you, but you would not be attracted to them.
What if it was a room full of, oh, say, Naked Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders (okay, I'm biased here)? Would you be able to shower without getting a woody? My point, unless there's been some wood, a baseball player shouldn't worry about what is going on in someone else's mind.
[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: CowboysHskrFan ]
[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: CowboysHskrFan ]
My question... Would you feel totally uncomfortable in a locker room full of ugly fat, naked women? The similarity to me is that they would be attracted to you, but you would not be attracted to them.
What if it was a room full of, oh, say, Naked Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders (okay, I'm biased here)? Would you be able to shower without getting a woody? My point, unless there's been some wood, a baseball player shouldn't worry about what is going on in someone else's mind.
[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: CowboysHskrFan ]
[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: CowboysHskrFan ]
I think what concerns me most about Joey's comments is that in his profile he says he's a nurse/student. Joey, I sincerely hope you are more comfortable with gay people within your chosen profession than you are about your favorite straight athletes sharing a locker room with gay athletes. You cannot be a compassionate nurse if you are uncomfortable with the patient's orientation. And what if the attending physician happens to be gay. Should he change into his scrubs in a room seperate from you? Would that improve workplace morale?
Speaking from experience, the gay guys in the locker room are most likely going out of their way to not make anyone uncomfortable.
I do appreciate how you have been able to make your points without offending anyone and hope the board continues to welcome and respect your thoughts. We can only all be comfortable through mutual understanding.
Speaking from experience, the gay guys in the locker room are most likely going out of their way to not make anyone uncomfortable.
I do appreciate how you have been able to make your points without offending anyone and hope the board continues to welcome and respect your thoughts. We can only all be comfortable through mutual understanding.
Interesting article from the usually unremarkable King Kaufman. He points out that the out player would become (a) extremely famous and (
rich because of it (if he wanted to). Not only would he be able to market to the gay community, but the hip community and even the homophobic community (imagine Bud doing an ad showing the gay guy drinking some other beer and then the slogan "Drink Bud, so everyone will know you're NOT GAY!" I think it would be hilarious, and when a person is willing to poke fun at himself, everyone can relate better.
Did anyone watch Letterman last night, with the "Heterosexual Mets" ad? Pretty funny.
I also wanted to say that not very many people have pointed out WHY people are so hyped up by the Piazza story. It's NOT because people are purely homophobes, but because it's SEXY. He's sexy. I guarantee you that if Mike Piazza came up to most of these fag-haters in a bar, and they were drunk, and he told them to suck his dick (and meant it), they'd at least consider it. Dude, it's Mike Piazza!
Also, in the words of Dan Savage, the closet is hot, hot, hot!
Have you noticed that most gay porn storylines don't deal with two openly gay men having openly gay sex together? There's an eroticism to many of us with the ambiguity preceding actual sex. I think the ambiguity of Piazza's sexuality gave a lot of guys' nipples hard (both het and homo). Let's not forget that as much as we want the spectrum of sexual orientation to be a binary, we all have at least a TINY bit of the other in us. It makes all this interesting.
You don't think that straight guys get the tiniest sexual charge when they call each other cocksmoker or say "he just totally f**ked me up the ass" when referring to a negative incident? Or that the sports callers imagining gays staring at them in the lockerroom are betraying just the tiniest bit of a thrill (which is perverse, and cognitively dissonent, and gets expressed as disgust/discomfort without ever exploring why)?
The holier than thou columnists who claim that all this is none of our business are missing the point. In this world, secrets are meant to be revealed. Once they're revealed, they're boring. And sexual secrets are the most tittillating of all. Why care about the exploits of athletes if we can't also speculate on who they really are? It's never about pure on-the-field performance or stats. Sports are also about grit, and class, and flamboyance. So let the speculating continue, let the rumors and denials fly, and let's keep it up until some poor gay utility player is outed by the National Enquirer and the excitement will be over and we can all go speculate about someone else.
rich because of it (if he wanted to). Not only would he be able to market to the gay community, but the hip community and even the homophobic community (imagine Bud doing an ad showing the gay guy drinking some other beer and then the slogan "Drink Bud, so everyone will know you're NOT GAY!" I think it would be hilarious, and when a person is willing to poke fun at himself, everyone can relate better.Did anyone watch Letterman last night, with the "Heterosexual Mets" ad? Pretty funny.
I also wanted to say that not very many people have pointed out WHY people are so hyped up by the Piazza story. It's NOT because people are purely homophobes, but because it's SEXY. He's sexy. I guarantee you that if Mike Piazza came up to most of these fag-haters in a bar, and they were drunk, and he told them to suck his dick (and meant it), they'd at least consider it. Dude, it's Mike Piazza!
Also, in the words of Dan Savage, the closet is hot, hot, hot!
Have you noticed that most gay porn storylines don't deal with two openly gay men having openly gay sex together? There's an eroticism to many of us with the ambiguity preceding actual sex. I think the ambiguity of Piazza's sexuality gave a lot of guys' nipples hard (both het and homo). Let's not forget that as much as we want the spectrum of sexual orientation to be a binary, we all have at least a TINY bit of the other in us. It makes all this interesting.
You don't think that straight guys get the tiniest sexual charge when they call each other cocksmoker or say "he just totally f**ked me up the ass" when referring to a negative incident? Or that the sports callers imagining gays staring at them in the lockerroom are betraying just the tiniest bit of a thrill (which is perverse, and cognitively dissonent, and gets expressed as disgust/discomfort without ever exploring why)?
The holier than thou columnists who claim that all this is none of our business are missing the point. In this world, secrets are meant to be revealed. Once they're revealed, they're boring. And sexual secrets are the most tittillating of all. Why care about the exploits of athletes if we can't also speculate on who they really are? It's never about pure on-the-field performance or stats. Sports are also about grit, and class, and flamboyance. So let the speculating continue, let the rumors and denials fly, and let's keep it up until some poor gay utility player is outed by the National Enquirer and the excitement will be over and we can all go speculate about someone else.
[quote]What if it was a room full of, oh, say, Naked Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders (okay, I'm biased here)? Would you be able to shower without getting a woody? My point, unless there's been some wood, a baseball player shouldn't worry about what is going on in someone else's mind.
LOL, cowboy! i've showered with a bunch of st8 guys and there was no problem whatsoever. to heck with the woody!
joey, m'man, welcum aboard. will you be ticked off if i say that i love straight dudes?
LOL, cowboy! i've showered with a bunch of st8 guys and there was no problem whatsoever. to heck with the woody!
joey, m'man, welcum aboard. will you be ticked off if i say that i love straight dudes?
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