Mr Dawg, you are my new hero. I've been saying this sort of stuff for years. Indeed there are many men who have sex with men -- regularly -- who don't identify as gay or even bi. It's not denial, necessarily; they just don't identify with anything society presents to them as "gay". And as I've said here before, athletes (even gay ones) tend to be a conservative bunch to begin with.

Okay, let's drop the word "gay." If a man is having sex with other men on a regular basis, I'd say it's likely he IS a homosexual or bisexual. He may feel he has nothing in common with the "gay lifestyle" or "gay community." He may say he doesn't feel defined by it, that it's only one aspect of his life. But if someone attempts to out this man and he tries to cover it up somehow, then it's obviously a hell of a lot more important than he claims it is.

YellaDawg,

I am not sure your experiences are all that different from mine - I think my major point got lost -

"Meeting a professional athlete who would then be interested and available to date/f**k you is no different than meeting some other rare breed like a famous movie star, a supermodel, or a high-profile politician or a Fortune 500 CEO power broker. People like that tend to hang within their own circles of comfort; people who have common interests/activities and about as much to lose as they do."

I would just phrase it more - politely??? Something like 'You can't meet someone if you don't go out to meet them - they are not going to just come to you - you have to be willing to socialize in their circles'

I don't really see anything wrong with seeking out someone you are attracted to... Stalking someone is another matter....

I have dated a lot of Athletes over the years because of my interests in Sports - participating and as a fan - I would expect the same of people with other interests in - god I don't know - photography, collecting fruit flies, or model building. I tend to meet people who are as involved in sports, and as outgoing as I am - I expect that probably holds true for anyone...

Rob

ITJock and Yelladawg I'm sure that whoever you have met has a lot to do with your self-confidence about your sexuality. I suspect gay male athletes are drawn to people who are secure and masculine. However I don't think that these athletes are very secure regardless of the front they put up. That can lead to all sorts of dysfuntional behavior. I wont try to use technical psycological-speech, but to me it is just common sense that someone who allows society to make them uncomfortable with being open about themselves is in for serious problems eventually.

I suppose it depends a lot on ones definition of 'comfort' too. Personally I am out to almost anyone who asks (though some I tell 'its none of your GD business'); but I also don't go around advertising it, and I have never been to a gay pride rally in my life - even though i support them and Lambda Legal Defense and other gay orgs -just because I have so much else to deal with in my life - it seems to be a very small part of who I am to cause so much controversy...

I think a lot of gay pro athletes may hold similar views... and I agree with the above writer who stated that he thought Athletes were pretty conservative as a group to start with...

I do know A LOT of amateur, college, and pro athletes who are very bi-sexually active, and have then 'settled down' to conventional 'straight' marriages with the white picket fence - two kids -dog in the yard existance later in life ... examples that immediately spring to mind are Bruce Jenner , Mark Spitz, and Arnold S ... and then even more who had fun blurring the lines and making people wonder...

Perhaps these people are simply attracted/inspired - like Leni Riefenstahl - to the beauty of the athletic body and the confidence these people exude... like the smell of testosterone in a college locker room after a major game... I know that that probably accounts for my bi-sexual activitty around that age... it wasn't until later that I became - almost -exclusively gay.

Rob

[ October 02, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

I agree with everything you said, but I would add one more thing.

The fact that a man like Copman has his own handcuffs, just makes it better.

My message to them would be.

If you're here to find out if you can score, you're gonna end up being outed.

If you're here to talk about sports, and occasionaly about a hot sports figure, welcome.

If you're here to hold out the pro thing over our heads, you're gonna get the wrath of a few people on this string who I would NEVER want to tangle with.

But MY personal message would be. If you're in the closet, and want to stay there, then I can respect that. I may not agree with it, but I can respect it, and honour it.

And if you're a certain former baseball player, who spent most of his career with Baltimore, then my comment is "get your butt up here. NOW".

Yelladawg, although it is definately true that not every openly gay person is perfectly stable and functional, I simply don't buy the arguement that anyone is psychologically better off in the closet. In fact, IMHO the statement that people don't come out because it's just "one aspect of their life that does not define them and ...[is] really [no one] else's business" is a reflection of homophobia.

The defining issue for homosexuality is whether someone is attracted (physically, emotionally, romantically) to people of the same gender. It does not matter how that person chooses to identify themselves - they're gay. They may not want to be identified with the gay community, but that is because they, at some level, agree that there is something wrong with being gay. If there weren't there would be no problem being associated with being gay.

In reality, even those of us who are "out" (and I make every effort to show, if not say, that I am gay on a daily basis, if only to counter stereotypes) are always in the closet unless we out ourselves. One of the things I did not understand at the time was that "coming out" is a lifelong process - or at least "living out" is one.

We all have decisions to make about whether to come out - when my podiatrist assumes I will eventually marry and have kids, when the guy at the hotel bar says something he doesn't like is "totally gay," when I visit my rabidly homophobic Southern Baptist relatives. In all of these cases I chickened out and did not reveal my homosexuality (although since I drove to my cousin's wedding at the First Baptist Church of Kettering, with the rainbow sticker on my car, I am sure at least one of my uncle's fellow Baptists has informed him), but only in the first case was it really not a big deal.

Again, I don't think we can require anyone to come out, but any time we as gay people don't do something, or go along with someone else's misconception, just to avoid confronting a straight person with the fact we are gay, we are contributing to the viscous cycle that keeps pro athletes in the closet. The less we do to make being gay not seen as negative, the more we encourage the homophobes among us.

I know this thread is some weeks old, but I have noticed I have a special talent on this board for killing discussions, so what the hell ... (Seriously, what is that? Do I have a booger on my nose or what? )

I am SURE that pro-athletes visit this site regularly, if only to hear that they have fans who love to praise them professionally and physically. They needn't even be gay! If there were a sight for straight women on which the topic was ALWAYS how hot I am and how great I am at my job, I'd have it bookmarked in a heartbeat.

The debate about being closeted it a little off target, I think. Being in the closet is somewhat different than being hypocritical, and I often see gays confuse the two. Being in the closet, ideally, is about privacy. Coming out is a matter of self-acceptance more than anything, and it takes varying degrees of time to cultivate the courage and emotional well-being necessary to take that step. In the meantime, people like to keep their personal life to themselves to avoid making any lasting decisions. This is "being in the closet" and it carries with it some responsibilities, just as being "out of the closet" does, ESPECIALLY if you are in the public eye.

Being hypocritical is entirely different and, I believe, absolutely inexcusable. If a celebrity directs hatred toward a group of people to identify himself as an opposite of that group, then there is every justification in the world to call him on it. This is not for revenge, but for fairness. Sports, as this site is testiment to, are a common thread in the world; in fact, if I may be so bold, they constitute a religion of sorts. With such a wide degree of influence, it can become the pulpit of harmful information. In my opinion, it is fair to counter that information vehemently.

I know, I know ... let's just play the game and forget politics. But I wasn't the one who used sports as a playground for social irreverence in the first place. To go back to the original topic, athletes have two choices: they can shut up and maintain neutrality or they can bring politics into the game by shooting off their mouths. At that point, they become open for just as many character attacks as they themselves have levied.

[ October 22, 2003, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: araanib ]

Oh, and as long as I'm snapping my fingers at the wind anyway, I would like to disagree with what a couple of people have suggested: that pro-athletes are atracted to "secure and masculine" men. From my experience, people buried in the closet look at a trust factor LONG before they assess any other physical or personal aspect. In the Army, I found that dating military men provided a sense of security ... a sort of M.A.D. derivative. During this time, I also hooked up (not a whore) with a pro-ball player. We spent a week or so together, and he admitted to me that he didn't have a uniform fetish or anything, he just was looking for safe fun. "Safe" to him meant more than condoms. Now, I would LOVE to think that he gravitated to me because I am a tough, manly stud. As it was, I was a cute blonde kid with a promise of discretion. With that, I could guarantee him peace of mind once all the prurient (read: fun) stuff was over with.

(are too)

And I seem to have a talent for killing relationships. Mine, that is. Three dates max. Guess I'm the "catch and release" type.

I'd be interested in knowing some of the sports history of some of the common posters here. I think it'd be interesting to know who was a fan, who was a player, what sports and at what level.

For example, I played some college football, but quit the team when I came out. Mostly because football had stopped being fun at the time and I was trying to focus on other things, not because I felt threatened by being out. Some of the posters have some good insights, and I'm kind of curious to know if they were players...or just insightful spectators.

I think there was a thread that addressed that some time ago but I couldn't find it so I think I'll start another.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The "personal sports history" discussion continues in the thread Which organized sports have you played? Any level - Outsports moderator

[ October 22, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: m1 ]

I think that the best chance we have at an out professional athlete was to have one come up throught the ranks. Granted, if they are talented in the high school/college ranks, they probably won't be wearing their homosexuality on their sleeve. However, I think its much more likely for this to happen than for some prima donna professional athlete to come out of the closet.

Why would anyone want that extra attention?

Just to throw a wrench into the discussion, what about the other people on the field/court/pool/etc.?

As a football official, I am not out to anyone associated with that particular avocation, only to my family. I wonder how many coaches, assistants, trainers, officials, etc. are forced to stay in the closet because of the homophobic nature of sports.

Do they visit???

As a matter of statistics and probability, Outsports has almost certainly been visited by closeted pro athletes. To argue otherwise would simply be illogical, especially considering that Outsports is mentioned and referenced by major sports media. The question of whether pro athletes are members of the site is a horse of an entirely different color. I would suspect that pro athletes are drawn to the site periodically, such as when the Danton Affair erupted or Tuaolo came out.

I agree with that. People who have spent their entire lives in the closet are a lost cause.

There is bound to be some extremely talented athlete who lives in a gay-friendly area who comes out at 17 in the recent future, probably in an individual sport like tennis. Give it another ten years and you'll see a baseball player or two. Full-contact sports like football will probably be the last ones to see an out homo. Lord knows I wouldn't want to be the physical target of all those 300-pound guys!

I wouldn't be quite so harsh. I think they're just not heroes, but then most of us aren't until we see a real necessity for it.

[/qb][/QUOTE]I agree with that. People who have spent their entire lives in the closet are a lost cause... Give it another ten years and you'll see a baseball player or two. Full-contact sports like football will probably be the last ones to see an out homo. Lord knows I wouldn't want to be the physical target of all those 300-pound guys! [/QB][/QUOTE]

I donno... I used to think that too...
But look at the numbers - not many granted - there are more Out former Football players than there are Baseball...

As for a 'lost cause' - remember that most of these guys are in their early to mid 20's; and that their entire lives are SPORTS. A lot of guys either don't know, don't understand, or don't come out until then... or even latter; add in your entire life being spent 24/365 in competition and training - its easy to see how it may just not be important to a lot of them..

Rob

[ September 20, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

I think a lot of this depends on how one defines "the closet" & being "out." On the Dan Patrick Radio Show, Rob Dibble has mentioned that in his playing days, he had gay teammates--players who announced their orientation to their fellow teammates but never went public. These players were out to those who mattered to them, while remaining what some in community would view "in the closet" because they never publicly annouced "I'm gay."

I view these players as being out of the closet, even though we don't know who they are.

~Adam

I agree Adam very good post

Question: Who in currently in Professional Sports sets off your "Gaydar"?, in particular Major League Baseball? I wonder about Derek Jeter of the NY Yankees. Brady Anderson of the Orioles, now retired.

Well and simply said, Adam.

No mention of Mike Piazza? I'm surprised, I figured he'd be first on the list. It seems Wendy Williams agrees with you about Derek Jeter. Perhaps you and her know something that the rest of us don't?

Brady Anderson not only sets off my gaydar, he has been all-but-outed repeatedly in the local gay rags in Baltimore. His orientation, and his supposed vigorous pursuit of partners for that orientation, is the stuff of legend in Charm City.

That suprises me - I met him once briefly at a fundraiser for St Judes in the mid 90's... he impressed me as being one of those people who are so involved with their career lifestyle that they are uninterested in any kind of relationship... there are some people that you just get NO sexual vibes from - yet a genuine human interest in everyone; though BA can apparently turn them on and off like a switch - I've seen him do it.

"The truth is, baseball is the most important thing in my life. It's what motivates me, keeps me going, frustrates me and the only thing in my life that really makes me content."
B Anderson
ESPN Sunday Conversation 1996

That quote has always had a ring of truth that I think I can highly identify with ...

Rob

[ September 23, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

[[/QUOTE]he impressed me as being one of those people who are so involved with their career lifestyle that they are uninterested in any kind of relationship... "The truth is, baseball is the most important thing in my life. It's what motivates me, keeps me going, frustrates me and the only thing in my life that really makes me content."
B Anderson
ESPN Sunday Conversation 1996

That quote has always had a ring of truth that I think I can highly identify with ...

Rob [/QB][/QUOTE]

But isn't throwing oneself into your profession, work, job, etc... one of the classic ways men avoid the sexual orientation issue, especially, if the guy is gay and a jock?

Not that I'm saying I know anything about B.A. I certianly do not in any manner. It's his life, I wish him well.

[quote][/QB][/quote]But isn't throwing oneself into your profession, work, job, etc... one of the classic ways men avoid the sexual orientation issue, especially, if the guy is gay and a jock?[/QB][/QUOTE]

I don't think it is nesc - I know A LOT of people who do it, both straight and openly gay.

Perhaps it might be an avoidance of intimacy of any kind with anyone.

Or it could simply be that their content with being fully engaged in a career that demands their total life.

In any case I think I know a lot more straight people who do the same thing.

My neighbors just got divorced last year - she filed claiming that he spends all his time from 5 am till 10 pm or later at the hospital (He is a Chief Surgeon at the Univ Med Ctr) 6+ days a week and never has time for her or the kids. He claims he is/was being a good provider and supporting his family.

Who knows? I think it is difficult subscribing motives to anyone else's psych...

Sometimes we, as gay people, have to 'look outside the box'; and be carefull not to impose? ascribe? our own motives on what other people do...

Rob

[ September 23, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

I think that professional athletes especially have such a single-minded drive that they won't or can't let other life issues, especially ones such as sexual orientation, get in the way of their drive to be the best they can be. Sure they have sex drives but having sex with a buddy or a girl is not the same thing as making that life-changing decision to live as a gay man or lesbian. To perform at the highest level, especially when most top athletes are in their teens and early 20s, I really think they focus on one thing, their sport. Maybe at some level they are hiding from themselves, most of us did that at some point, but mainly I think they are avoiding any distractions.

That theory probably applies to most premere athletes, like most olympic sports and individual sports. Swimmers, cyclists and track athletes fit that category. But the money factor homophobia are major considerations for the athletes in the big 3 sports in the US, football, bball and baseball, and maybe to a lesser extent hockey.

There's an article in this week's Washington Blade on gays in sports.

Bballrob -- as usual, an excellent post. I would extend your comments to go beyond sports. I am always amazed at how many people are so single minded with certain pursuits.

I used to read a lot of biographies and was always amazed that the one common thread of many successful people (whether in sports, government, the arts, music) is a drive so strong to achieve "the goal" that they subjogate many of their other needs, desires and facets of their personality. In some cases, I'm sure this means not even dealing with sexual identity issues. Not healthy -- but a reality.

True, ITJock....but I wasn't speaking about population in general, but only a way gay men avoid the sexuality issue. BBall made a very good point. The price of being a professional jock is extremely high.

Saying that the closeted gay athlete doesn't have time to come out may be giving them a bit of a free ride. Driven people, especially, will make time for something that is important to them. More likely is that they use their 'life goal' as an excuse to avoid reality. That may be a choice that is "not healthy", but humans, especially intelligent ones, have a virtually unlimited ability to rationalize things to allow themselves to believe whatever they want to believe. The comfort zone in the closet is huge.

The column states that "the Tribune newspapers released a survey of Major League Baseball players in which 74 percent said they would not be bothered by having a gay teammate. 'I've probably had one already,' the Chicago White Sox's Willie Harris is quoted as saying. This, if nothing more, is a hopeful sign."

While I am a bit surprised by the results of that survey (it would be interesting to know exactly HOW MANY of the 800 MLB players responded and how many declined to answer) it nevertheless appears to be an encouraging sign....now if we can only get a similar percentage of the American public to respond in that manner then we'll finally be making some REAL progress.

~Joe

The Tribune survey wasn't released last week. It was discussed in this Outsports article back in July.

It seems that The Blade is calling out two particular people. I wonder who they are.....