If you were a millionaire jock, still peeking out between the muscle shirts in your closet, would you visit our beloved Outsports site to see what gay fans were saying about you? And how often your name came up...?
And as gay sports fans, what message would you like them to read when they do?
Full Version: Do closeted gay pro jocks visit Outsports?
Jim Maynard in Equality Tennessee gives a good response to the hug he recieved from Mike Tyson. I would think any closeted gay athlete would want to read something as positive.
Unfortunately if the player is known by a poster to be gay and closeted they are not likely to be so sympathetic.
If I were a closeted pro athlete I'd probably be more interested in the Hot Jock Talk section. I don't think I'd be getting much action for fear of being outted so I'd probably need a superactive fantasy life.
If I were considering coming out I'd probably read and welcome all comments just to get an idea of what I'd be getting myself into.
Unfortunately if the player is known by a poster to be gay and closeted they are not likely to be so sympathetic.
If I were a closeted pro athlete I'd probably be more interested in the Hot Jock Talk section. I don't think I'd be getting much action for fear of being outted so I'd probably need a superactive fantasy life.
If I were considering coming out I'd probably read and welcome all comments just to get an idea of what I'd be getting myself into.
[quote]Originally posted by billysims:
And as gay sports fans, what message would you like them to read when they do?
Willkommen! Bienvenue! Welcome!
And as gay sports fans, what message would you like them to read when they do?
Willkommen! Bienvenue! Welcome!
SportinLife, I will agree with you that if the player were known to be gay, not out and visiting on here, he might not get the best reception from some of the posters.
I think this is quite unfortunate that, here of all places, a gay player wouldn't feel comfortable. Maybe we can work on that.
I think this is quite unfortunate that, here of all places, a gay player wouldn't feel comfortable. Maybe we can work on that.
I'm sure if a current player visited outsports and shared his experiences and situation, posters would engage him enthusiastically.
No disrespect bryand, but I
think the athlete would be "outted"
think the athlete would be "outted"
[quote]Originally posted by LAKERSRDABOMB:
No disrespect bryand, but I
think the athlete would be "outted"
Why? - if he isn't specific about details - he could be anyone- like Ump 25. We c ould enjoy talkin to him and not have to know who he is.
No disrespect bryand, but I
think the athlete would be "outted"
Why? - if he isn't specific about details - he could be anyone- like Ump 25. We c ould enjoy talkin to him and not have to know who he is.
[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
I was hoping I wouldn't be mentioned in this thread.
Sorry but you are a good example of someone we know OF - but don't know personally. (I would have just sent this to you privately but you have blocked personal communications.) as I guess is your right.
I was hoping I wouldn't be mentioned in this thread.
Sorry but you are a good example of someone we know OF - but don't know personally. (I would have just sent this to you privately but you have blocked personal communications.) as I guess is your right.
One problem with anyone saying they're an active pro and being closeted is their believability on the issue. How would we ever truly know? I for one would welcome them; even a closeted person has a story to tell worth hearing. Outsports has a policy against outing, by the way.
[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
Anyway, based on what several people opined a while ago, I'd have to agree that if a gay player were to post here, he'd either be outed or slammed for remaining in the closet. Just my opinion.
BTW, copman, Jim and I have talked several times, so he at least knows who I am. I doubt any gay player is going to talk to Jim now or anytime soon.
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Ump25 ]
I disagree Ump. I think we've been pretty respectful of a person's right to privacy. We know that different people on this board have different degrees of outness. What many of us object to are things like Brendan Lemon's phantom boyfriend.
Granted, we would likely encourage the player to come out, offer our support. But a closeted player need not post as a "closeted player," hinting at things he knows but won't tell us. He could just post as himself, John Doe--not John Doe, closeted player.
I think we're respectful of people who are honest about their situation--like Ump25.
But--now that Jim is about to get some national media exposure on CNN--perhaps gay athletes might be more willing to give our site a look and a try.
And I say: Welcome!
Anyway, based on what several people opined a while ago, I'd have to agree that if a gay player were to post here, he'd either be outed or slammed for remaining in the closet. Just my opinion.
BTW, copman, Jim and I have talked several times, so he at least knows who I am. I doubt any gay player is going to talk to Jim now or anytime soon.
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Ump25 ]
I disagree Ump. I think we've been pretty respectful of a person's right to privacy. We know that different people on this board have different degrees of outness. What many of us object to are things like Brendan Lemon's phantom boyfriend.
Granted, we would likely encourage the player to come out, offer our support. But a closeted player need not post as a "closeted player," hinting at things he knows but won't tell us. He could just post as himself, John Doe--not John Doe, closeted player.
I think we're respectful of people who are honest about their situation--like Ump25.
But--now that Jim is about to get some national media exposure on CNN--perhaps gay athletes might be more willing to give our site a look and a try.
And I say: Welcome!
Canmark, I disagree that we have been respectful of Ump on this board and thus, it is unlikely that we would be respectful to the player as well. Ump has been pretty beat up by some of the posters even AFTER the rules were set by Jim from the get go.
I've said this before, if we aren't tolerant and accepting of others' degreee of our outness, how can we expect tolerance from non-gays?
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]
I've said this before, if we aren't tolerant and accepting of others' degreee of our outness, how can we expect tolerance from non-gays?
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]
I have to disagree with you too.
Ump25 was completely raked over the coals for about a week or two by a couple of un-named posters here. They chastized him for not being an out role-model to the world, totally dismissed any fears he had about the ramifications of coming out in his profession, and rather rudely and repeatedly badgered him about the fact that THEY THOUGHT he should come out. That pissed me off in a big way. I almost quit coming to this board because of the bitchyness that some posters displayed on this board. If I were a pro-athlete and had witnessed the attack that UMP25 took and endured (very tactfully I may add), I would be scared shitless to tell anyone anything about my personal life.
Ok, I'll step off my soapbox now. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, just trying to convey my personal feelings about the tone of some of the conversations on this board.
Ump25 was completely raked over the coals for about a week or two by a couple of un-named posters here. They chastized him for not being an out role-model to the world, totally dismissed any fears he had about the ramifications of coming out in his profession, and rather rudely and repeatedly badgered him about the fact that THEY THOUGHT he should come out. That pissed me off in a big way. I almost quit coming to this board because of the bitchyness that some posters displayed on this board. If I were a pro-athlete and had witnessed the attack that UMP25 took and endured (very tactfully I may add), I would be scared shitless to tell anyone anything about my personal life.
Ok, I'll step off my soapbox now. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, just trying to convey my personal feelings about the tone of some of the conversations on this board.
Oh, I agree that there has been some wild flaming going on (over Ump25 and other issues), but those fires are easily put out. Some of the conflict came from people who were new to the board and didn't know the history of certain regular posters.
Ump25 is the only person we know who currently works in a professional sports league---and he has his own column on our board!
I don't think a person in professional sports should be afraid of us. Goodness, we're your biggest fans!
We don't need to be Billy Beane and scare people back in the closet. No matter how out we may be or not be, we all know what that fear is about. And the best way to face it is to know that you have people who support you.
Ump25 is the only person we know who currently works in a professional sports league---and he has his own column on our board!
I don't think a person in professional sports should be afraid of us. Goodness, we're your biggest fans!
We don't need to be Billy Beane and scare people back in the closet. No matter how out we may be or not be, we all know what that fear is about. And the best way to face it is to know that you have people who support you.
When someone's visiting a site called OUTSPORTS and treats being closeted like hallowed ground, he'll likely get some flak.
Billy Bean is getting flak because of specific remarks and statements that he's made.
A closeted ballplayer would likely be the source of great interest. If he wasn't making hypocritical, anti-gay comments, I'm sure he would be fully supported for his situation.
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]
Billy Bean is getting flak because of specific remarks and statements that he's made.
A closeted ballplayer would likely be the source of great interest. If he wasn't making hypocritical, anti-gay comments, I'm sure he would be fully supported for his situation.
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]
I don't know....but I think I know which poster would have that person in his crosshairs first.
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]
it is my first inclination to suggest that any pro jocks that do visit our little space here on the web do so sparingly, whether gay or straight, because it's likely their lives are too hectic to allow for consistency. am I right? at any rate, even if they do post here and they are closeted, it would seem to me they'd be awfully mum on their status as a jock to stay out of the crossfire.
Hi all,
New guy here, so this is my first post.
A professional athlete in these forums, would be swamped by messages, both good and bad. Such is the way with celebrity, and not particularly appealing.
A more likely scenario, in my mind at least, is a pro athlete visiting this site, without ever mentioning his career -- a sort of reversed closet. In fact, if a poster claimed to be a pro athlete, I would most likely not believe him.
Stephen
New guy here, so this is my first post.
A professional athlete in these forums, would be swamped by messages, both good and bad. Such is the way with celebrity, and not particularly appealing.
A more likely scenario, in my mind at least, is a pro athlete visiting this site, without ever mentioning his career -- a sort of reversed closet. In fact, if a poster claimed to be a pro athlete, I would most likely not believe him.
Stephen
I'm guessing a pro athlete who visited here would either just read content or post as a regular joe. An Auburn message board I visit has several former football players on it who've never identified themselves as such. Who has time for the hassle?
[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: SportsOutdoorsGA ]
[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: SportsOutdoorsGA ]
Think back on your own experiences in coming out and put yourself in the place of a college athlete, already in the limelight if he's a good one, wrestling with his sexuality. I met a nationally ranked college football player from a major southern university on line a few years ago, and we had a series of nice chats. He focused on some of the same issues some of us do here: a desire for "real men," not nelly queens; a desire for a relationship, not just sex, and dissatisfaction with the general leftist tilt of gay politics. We planned to meet when I was in his town earlier this year, but he pulled a no-show. I was a little disapppointed, but not greatly. I remembered my own fits and bursts of coming out activity when his age (21) and how I'd generally avoid anyone a few years older than I, who just turned 50. So, perhaps this guy is monitoring us, although we didn't meet on this board, and still dealing with how and when to come out. He's the only one who can decide that and that's exactly as it should be. I wish him well, he seemed to be a smart cookie as well as a tough stud, and I hope he joins up with us here someday.
I think that any professional athlete that joined us here would get a generally positive reaction, with the exception of a few posters who are hostile toward those who don't have what they've decided is the required level of militancy.
Well I don't know about you, but I don't approve of anybody's level of millinery these days.
Hah, redsox, I got the joke without the link. And I agree. There's a shocking amount of bareheadedness in this country today.
[quote]Originally posted by billysims:
And as gay sports fans, what message would you like them to read when they do?
Hi pro/semi-pro/college athlete. I am a sports fan. I admire what you have been able to do with your talents and hard work.
I am attracted to, love and live with a man. I call myself a homosexual. You may choose whatever name you'd like and I respect that. Loving someone of the same sex is perfectly okay, no matter what you've learned at home, in church, wherever. The problem is with the other people, NOT with YOU.
There is nothing wrong with you, and who you love, who you desire, in no way detracts from your accomplishments on a field, a court, greens. Just as you take pride in your sports achievements, it is fine to be proud of who you are inside, who you desire, who you love. No matter what others say. You are okay, and welcome here.
And as gay sports fans, what message would you like them to read when they do?
Hi pro/semi-pro/college athlete. I am a sports fan. I admire what you have been able to do with your talents and hard work.
I am attracted to, love and live with a man. I call myself a homosexual. You may choose whatever name you'd like and I respect that. Loving someone of the same sex is perfectly okay, no matter what you've learned at home, in church, wherever. The problem is with the other people, NOT with YOU.
There is nothing wrong with you, and who you love, who you desire, in no way detracts from your accomplishments on a field, a court, greens. Just as you take pride in your sports achievements, it is fine to be proud of who you are inside, who you desire, who you love. No matter what others say. You are okay, and welcome here.
I do not want any professional athletes to come out. I mean think about it, you can't have the same fantasies about turning a straight jock if you actually know who's gay. People need to get a life. It's like Pamela Anderson. Straight guys wanna be Tommy Lee. But GAME OVER MAN! They aint Tommy Lee. Really think some hunky jock is going to come this board and sweep some lame ass
tax broker off his water retaining feet? Not going to happen. Find another lame ass to toss your fruit salads. If a PRO is gay, he's going to date models, actors, or fancy that...other PRO athletes! sToP oBsSeSsInG oVeR pRo AtHlEtEs
Instead, be nice to the smuck who loves you and who you act like a bitch to. That is Gay Pride.
Gideon
tax broker off his water retaining feet? Not going to happen. Find another lame ass to toss your fruit salads. If a PRO is gay, he's going to date models, actors, or fancy that...other PRO athletes! sToP oBsSeSsInG oVeR pRo AtHlEtEs
Instead, be nice to the smuck who loves you and who you act like a bitch to. That is Gay Pride.
Gideon
[quote]Originally posted by Gideon:
be nice to the smuck who loves you
Why can't I do that AND think about Doug Flutie all hot & sweaty after a long hard game -EXAMPLE We are the last ones in the locker room (he needs a cop to stay with him because of all the fans outside.) Doug says " Oh and by the way officer - How about lockin that door - I'd like a little privacy" "Nah- Officer you don't have to leave - in fact since you are all hot & sweaty too after such a long hot day - I bet you could use a shower too! ... Wanna join me ?... SEE _ just a harmless fantasy -no harm done !
be nice to the smuck who loves you
Why can't I do that AND think about Doug Flutie all hot & sweaty after a long hard game -EXAMPLE We are the last ones in the locker room (he needs a cop to stay with him because of all the fans outside.) Doug says " Oh and by the way officer - How about lockin that door - I'd like a little privacy" "Nah- Officer you don't have to leave - in fact since you are all hot & sweaty too after such a long hot day - I bet you could use a shower too! ... Wanna join me ?... SEE _ just a harmless fantasy -no harm done !
[quote]Originally posted by Gideon:
sToP oBsSeSsInG oVeR pRo AtHlEtEs
The discussion of gay pro athletes visiting this site and gay pro athletes fulfilling sexual fantasies are two entirely different things.
sToP oBsSeSsInG oVeR pRo AtHlEtEs
The discussion of gay pro athletes visiting this site and gay pro athletes fulfilling sexual fantasies are two entirely different things.
Copman, you crack me up.
[quote]Originally posted by copman:
Why can't I do that AND think about Doug Flutie all hot & sweaty after a long hard game -EXAMPLE We are the last ones in the locker room (he needs a cop to stay with him because of all the fans outside.) Doug says " Oh and by the way officer - How about lockin that door - I'd like a little privacy" "Nah- Officer you don't have to leave - in fact since you are all hot & sweaty too after such a long hot day - I bet you could use a shower too! ... Wanna join me ?... SEE _ just a harmless fantasy -no harm done !
And... Go On...
Why can't I do that AND think about Doug Flutie all hot & sweaty after a long hard game -EXAMPLE We are the last ones in the locker room (he needs a cop to stay with him because of all the fans outside.) Doug says " Oh and by the way officer - How about lockin that door - I'd like a little privacy" "Nah- Officer you don't have to leave - in fact since you are all hot & sweaty too after such a long hot day - I bet you could use a shower too! ... Wanna join me ?... SEE _ just a harmless fantasy -no harm done !
And... Go On...
BTW Copman...Just between you and me
The man who finds himself alone and sweaty with a guy like you indeed is the lucky one...
Give the pro-jocks their due... but even my Javy can't compete with a hard working man who wears a badge and has an everyday committment is to serve and protect us from the bad guys.
Best Part:
You're 100% REAL
Be Safe , Buddy...
The man who finds himself alone and sweaty with a guy like you indeed is the lucky one...
Give the pro-jocks their due... but even my Javy can't compete with a hard working man who wears a badge and has an everyday committment is to serve and protect us from the bad guys.
Best Part:
You're 100% REAL
Be Safe , Buddy...
In another thread, libaseballjock posted:
any pro athletes or college athletes post on here?
Just wondering if any pros or college athletes post on this board. Can people who post on here be assured 100% anonymity? How much better would it would be if pro or college athletes, who are gay or bi, would talk to each other in an anonymous non-threatening manner where their identity is concealed. Perhaps unbeknownst to me it is already happening on here.
Joe in Philly replied:
It may be more likely that pro athletes only read this board, not post to it. College athletes may be a different story because there are so many colleges and college sports, and because they may feel they have less to lose if they're discovered.
Anyone can be anonymous if they don't tell anyone who they are in their profile or in messages, and if no one sees them online at the site or checks out their browsing history.
ITJock replied:
I don't know about currently playing college athletes, but there do seem to be a lot of us Ex College Jocks.
If you want to find out about how many play or played in the past, I suggest looking at Coach Gumby's Registry...
Rob
any pro athletes or college athletes post on here?
Just wondering if any pros or college athletes post on this board. Can people who post on here be assured 100% anonymity? How much better would it would be if pro or college athletes, who are gay or bi, would talk to each other in an anonymous non-threatening manner where their identity is concealed. Perhaps unbeknownst to me it is already happening on here.
Joe in Philly replied:
It may be more likely that pro athletes only read this board, not post to it. College athletes may be a different story because there are so many colleges and college sports, and because they may feel they have less to lose if they're discovered.
Anyone can be anonymous if they don't tell anyone who they are in their profile or in messages, and if no one sees them online at the site or checks out their browsing history.
ITJock replied:
I don't know about currently playing college athletes, but there do seem to be a lot of us Ex College Jocks.
If you want to find out about how many play or played in the past, I suggest looking at Coach Gumby's Registry...
Rob
QUOTE
orsino4:
Hi all,
New guy here, so this is my first post.
A professional athlete in these forums, would be swamped by messages, both good and bad. Such is the way with celebrity, and not particularly appealing.
A more likely scenario, in my mind at least, is a pro athlete visiting this site, without ever mentioning his career -- a sort of reversed closet. In fact, if a poster claimed to be a pro athlete, I would most likely not believe him.
Stephen
I think I agree with this interpretation. I remember someone posting to a messageboard who said he was Brad May, then of the Buffalo Sabres. It took a LOT of persistence on my part to get that bit of information from him, and he's not exactly a superstar. I believed him because he wasn't exactly quick to volunteer his identity.Hi all,
New guy here, so this is my first post.
A professional athlete in these forums, would be swamped by messages, both good and bad. Such is the way with celebrity, and not particularly appealing.
A more likely scenario, in my mind at least, is a pro athlete visiting this site, without ever mentioning his career -- a sort of reversed closet. In fact, if a poster claimed to be a pro athlete, I would most likely not believe him.
Stephen
If a ballplayer, straight or gay, decided to read this messageboard, I would hope he or she would find it a place where intelligent discourse can go on. If straight, it may be a stereotype-shaking experience. Either way, it could provide a lot of food for thought.
I have had the good fortune to have had a relationship with a former NFL Player - for a couple of years in the early 90's; and known another friend of mine who had a long term relationship with a NHL Hockey Player from NY (Both are now retired but still not 'Out').
In both cases the INCREDIBLE difficulty in avoiding publicity of any kind was almost impossible. For a Pro Gay Athlete to come out to the world in one of these sports would make it would 100 times worse. The person would be swamped in Press - all of it about crap that had little or nothing to do with the sport they were trying to concentrate on - the distraction would be hugely detremental to their performance.
While I would like to see them , and others, come out publicly - I think it will happen sometime in the future almost as an afterthought...
As for this forum - we will have to wait and see...
Rob
[ September 22, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]
In both cases the INCREDIBLE difficulty in avoiding publicity of any kind was almost impossible. For a Pro Gay Athlete to come out to the world in one of these sports would make it would 100 times worse. The person would be swamped in Press - all of it about crap that had little or nothing to do with the sport they were trying to concentrate on - the distraction would be hugely detremental to their performance.
While I would like to see them , and others, come out publicly - I think it will happen sometime in the future almost as an afterthought...
As for this forum - we will have to wait and see...
Rob
[ September 22, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]
I think it's been said before, but I don't really see a pro player "coming out", really.
I see a different situation developing in the next couple of years, in the realm of gay pro sports stars. I see someone who happens to be gay in high school, making it to a college team with a good nondescrimination policy that is actually fostered and upheld. This person does well enough at school that "regardless, or inspite of, or maybe even due to the fact that he's gay in some small way" he is then drafted and works his way up through the ranks with everyone aware that he is gay, and based on talent alone, we finally get our gay ball player.
The thing is, by that time, hopefully, being gay will not be a big deal.
I see a different situation developing in the next couple of years, in the realm of gay pro sports stars. I see someone who happens to be gay in high school, making it to a college team with a good nondescrimination policy that is actually fostered and upheld. This person does well enough at school that "regardless, or inspite of, or maybe even due to the fact that he's gay in some small way" he is then drafted and works his way up through the ranks with everyone aware that he is gay, and based on talent alone, we finally get our gay ball player.
The thing is, by that time, hopefully, being gay will not be a big deal.
QUOTE
ITJock:
I have had the good fortune to have had a relationship with a former NFL Player... and known another friend of mine who had a long term relationship with a NHL Hockey Player from NY (Both are now retired but still not 'Out').
There was a related discussion a few months ago in which Jim at Outsports asked "Why have so few RETIRED jocks publicly come out? We can understand active ones, but what's the harm once the career is over? Would love to hear what people think because this is one question I get asked a lot by the media."I have had the good fortune to have had a relationship with a former NFL Player... and known another friend of mine who had a long term relationship with a NHL Hockey Player from NY (Both are now retired but still not 'Out').
Rob ITJock, how about in the case of your ex-pro acquaintances? Are publicity & privacy still the issue for them? And more to the point of this thread, do you know if they hang at Outsports?
I would also love to hear what your friends/acquaintances have to say about staying in the closet, ITJock - as a gay person I have mixed feelings about the issue, and the bottom line is that no one can live anyone else's life for them.
I can only imagine the kind of publicity that would be on the first major league athlete to come out while playing, and the impact on his personal life, never mind on-the-field/rink/court play, which would likely be horrible. The chances of having a personal life would be near zero, even if he were dating an "out" gay person, because of that publicity - can you imagine trying to be part of the all-male Benifer?
That being said, I think the impact of a retired player, a star particularly, would be huge for the gay community. If, for the sake of argument, a Brady Anderson or Steve Young were to come out (I'm not saying they're gay, mind you), it would make the publicity surrounding Esera Tuolo and Billy Bean look like nothing. And it would be a great "get" for the gay community - to prove once and for all that sexual orienation does not pre-ordain one's athletic abilities.
But even as I get worked into a political lather over the potential of even a retired gay superstar coming out, I doubt I, or anyone who is not a pro athlete, could imagine the fear such a person would have. I posted in the earlier thread (to which redsoxbreath refers above) that most pro athletes likely have bought into the image of gay men as weak, limp-wristed, etc. - or at least believe enough straight men have bought into that image - and have spent a lot of time in environments that don't welcome gay people.
I can't imagine deciding to chuck that world, the one I grew up in, to become a role model for a community that may not be very inviting. I mean, as a pro athlete, even retired, coming out, they may have the worst of both worlds - reviled and ostracized by the players and coaches of their sport, but rejected by the gay community for coming out too late, for coming out too tenously or slowly, for not being a strong enough gay rights advocate.
We all should remember what it was like jumping off that precipice into coming out. It is scary enough when you are not famous (Martina once said at an HRC dinner to those in the audience still closeted something like: - "what do you have to worry about, I had to come out to the whole world at once."), but to believe you might be losing most, if not all, of your friends, the endorsements that even retired athletes can get, and also the career recognition you are due (can you imagine the Hall of Fame controversies?) could make anyone clam up. And if the guy has not had a lot of exerience with the gay community (friends, etc.), then they would be more likely to avoid coming out.
It is interesting that both Billy Bean and Esera Tuolo came out only have 1) establishing a presence in the gay community - achieving at least a small circle of friends who were supportive (it was one such friend who gave Tuolo Dave Kopay's biography to read) and, maybe more importantly, 2) a solid relationship with another man before they could face coming out - they had both created lives that did not require their past friends or career glories, and they were unlikely to get endorsement deals, so they had a lot less to lose.
I can only imagine the kind of publicity that would be on the first major league athlete to come out while playing, and the impact on his personal life, never mind on-the-field/rink/court play, which would likely be horrible. The chances of having a personal life would be near zero, even if he were dating an "out" gay person, because of that publicity - can you imagine trying to be part of the all-male Benifer?
That being said, I think the impact of a retired player, a star particularly, would be huge for the gay community. If, for the sake of argument, a Brady Anderson or Steve Young were to come out (I'm not saying they're gay, mind you), it would make the publicity surrounding Esera Tuolo and Billy Bean look like nothing. And it would be a great "get" for the gay community - to prove once and for all that sexual orienation does not pre-ordain one's athletic abilities.
But even as I get worked into a political lather over the potential of even a retired gay superstar coming out, I doubt I, or anyone who is not a pro athlete, could imagine the fear such a person would have. I posted in the earlier thread (to which redsoxbreath refers above) that most pro athletes likely have bought into the image of gay men as weak, limp-wristed, etc. - or at least believe enough straight men have bought into that image - and have spent a lot of time in environments that don't welcome gay people.
I can't imagine deciding to chuck that world, the one I grew up in, to become a role model for a community that may not be very inviting. I mean, as a pro athlete, even retired, coming out, they may have the worst of both worlds - reviled and ostracized by the players and coaches of their sport, but rejected by the gay community for coming out too late, for coming out too tenously or slowly, for not being a strong enough gay rights advocate.
We all should remember what it was like jumping off that precipice into coming out. It is scary enough when you are not famous (Martina once said at an HRC dinner to those in the audience still closeted something like: - "what do you have to worry about, I had to come out to the whole world at once."), but to believe you might be losing most, if not all, of your friends, the endorsements that even retired athletes can get, and also the career recognition you are due (can you imagine the Hall of Fame controversies?) could make anyone clam up. And if the guy has not had a lot of exerience with the gay community (friends, etc.), then they would be more likely to avoid coming out.
It is interesting that both Billy Bean and Esera Tuolo came out only have 1) establishing a presence in the gay community - achieving at least a small circle of friends who were supportive (it was one such friend who gave Tuolo Dave Kopay's biography to read) and, maybe more importantly, 2) a solid relationship with another man before they could face coming out - they had both created lives that did not require their past friends or career glories, and they were unlikely to get endorsement deals, so they had a lot less to lose.
For Beachjock73 who emailed me:
"I've met a couple minor celebrities online the past couple years who wanted some discrete (or not so discrete) relations. I'm really curious, though, how you met a pro athlete in the early 90's and began a relationship. I don't mean to sound incredulous, because I do believe you. I'm just curious how it came about. Was he someone you met at a party, or through friends who knew (or didn't)? I've always wondered how these closet relationships develop. beachjock73"
In my case we met at a environmental fundraising event - we ended up shooting some sporting clays, and got talking about playing ball. That night at the dinner and fundraising auction we talked some more, and found out we had a lot in common, he outbid me for a VERY nice oil painting of some wood ducks, the start of a good friendship. A couple of long looks that lasted just a little too long, a little bit of close contact...my gaydar was up; he had to leave that evening; We exchanged business cards, and the next time I was in the city where he was playing, we arranged to meet for dinner.
The relationship was EXTREMELY difficult, we could not go anyplace with any frequency, nor could he introduce me other than as a friend.
When we met in a townwhere his team was staying, I had to rent a room in another hotel, and we would eat in. We did do a lot of travel and camping, fishing, shooting, etc during the off season - but again he wanted to be very discreet.
Holidays were a BITCH. The strain took its toll, and we parted company. We are still good friends, I even see him a couple times each year - but he has chosen to remain in the closet since he now coaches.
For Redsoxbreath who posted:
"Rob ITJock, how about in the case of your ex-pro acquaintances? Are publicity & privacy still the issue for them? And more to the point of this thread, do you know if they hang at Outsports?"
My friend is still actively coaching, and prefers to remain mostly closeted for professional reasons - though he now has a few close gay friends, mostly he just doesn't discuss it - most people just assume he is straight, and he does nothing to disabuse them of the idea. When asked he has said that there might be some minor benefit to gays - but it would be hugely detrimental and distracting to his coaching and his team.
The other couple I mentioned live very happily - quietly - privately - together; they spend part of the year on the Maine Coast; and are frequently seen in public together but are either assumed to be just good friends, or nobody has said anything - maybe because he doesn't play anymore and isn't in the spotlight. I do know that they cherish their privacy.
As to the other three emails that suggested other things:
HELL NO.
Rob
"I've met a couple minor celebrities online the past couple years who wanted some discrete (or not so discrete) relations. I'm really curious, though, how you met a pro athlete in the early 90's and began a relationship. I don't mean to sound incredulous, because I do believe you. I'm just curious how it came about. Was he someone you met at a party, or through friends who knew (or didn't)? I've always wondered how these closet relationships develop. beachjock73"
In my case we met at a environmental fundraising event - we ended up shooting some sporting clays, and got talking about playing ball. That night at the dinner and fundraising auction we talked some more, and found out we had a lot in common, he outbid me for a VERY nice oil painting of some wood ducks, the start of a good friendship. A couple of long looks that lasted just a little too long, a little bit of close contact...my gaydar was up; he had to leave that evening; We exchanged business cards, and the next time I was in the city where he was playing, we arranged to meet for dinner.
The relationship was EXTREMELY difficult, we could not go anyplace with any frequency, nor could he introduce me other than as a friend.
When we met in a townwhere his team was staying, I had to rent a room in another hotel, and we would eat in. We did do a lot of travel and camping, fishing, shooting, etc during the off season - but again he wanted to be very discreet.
Holidays were a BITCH. The strain took its toll, and we parted company. We are still good friends, I even see him a couple times each year - but he has chosen to remain in the closet since he now coaches.
For Redsoxbreath who posted:
"Rob ITJock, how about in the case of your ex-pro acquaintances? Are publicity & privacy still the issue for them? And more to the point of this thread, do you know if they hang at Outsports?"
My friend is still actively coaching, and prefers to remain mostly closeted for professional reasons - though he now has a few close gay friends, mostly he just doesn't discuss it - most people just assume he is straight, and he does nothing to disabuse them of the idea. When asked he has said that there might be some minor benefit to gays - but it would be hugely detrimental and distracting to his coaching and his team.
The other couple I mentioned live very happily - quietly - privately - together; they spend part of the year on the Maine Coast; and are frequently seen in public together but are either assumed to be just good friends, or nobody has said anything - maybe because he doesn't play anymore and isn't in the spotlight. I do know that they cherish their privacy.
As to the other three emails that suggested other things:
HELL NO.
Rob
Rob, Very interesting story and well told. It sounds like you spent some good times together and made the most of the situations you were in. It's nice to hear about prudence and discretion making for a worthwhile relationship - which may not be over yet. Good luck to both of you in finding happiness. :cool:
A couple of people have written asking how to meet a pro athlete - I assume because they are hoping to find outwhether or not...
I have met many famous people - not just pro athletes - over the years, just by going out and being in the same general vicinity and interested in the same things they are.
IMHO - If you want to make friends with a professional athlete without them thinking your one more 'collector'... find out what they are interested in doing in their 'off time', and where they like to do it. Go to a Benefit where a lot of celebs are scheduled to appear for fund raising for some charity. Mix, mingle, and strike up a conversation. It really is that simple...
Yes - you need to be a little confident - and appear like you belong, hint - most of them don't feel like they belong either...
Yes - you need to be pleasant, and be able to hold up your end of the conversation...
and finally... don't gush or try to snow them... they have enough people who try every day that they can spot them a mile off...
I probably have an advantage in that most people have a great deal of difficulty believing I am gay; I am very masculine, I have a certain confidence, and I don't go around wearing a rainbow cape (chuckle - that was a joke)
Mostly - get out there; The celeb you are interested in won't come to you, and you won't find the person your looking for by sitting at home and watching the boob tube.
Rob
I have met many famous people - not just pro athletes - over the years, just by going out and being in the same general vicinity and interested in the same things they are.
IMHO - If you want to make friends with a professional athlete without them thinking your one more 'collector'... find out what they are interested in doing in their 'off time', and where they like to do it. Go to a Benefit where a lot of celebs are scheduled to appear for fund raising for some charity. Mix, mingle, and strike up a conversation. It really is that simple...
Yes - you need to be a little confident - and appear like you belong, hint - most of them don't feel like they belong either...
Yes - you need to be pleasant, and be able to hold up your end of the conversation...
and finally... don't gush or try to snow them... they have enough people who try every day that they can spot them a mile off...
I probably have an advantage in that most people have a great deal of difficulty believing I am gay; I am very masculine, I have a certain confidence, and I don't go around wearing a rainbow cape (chuckle - that was a joke)
Mostly - get out there; The celeb you are interested in won't come to you, and you won't find the person your looking for by sitting at home and watching the boob tube.
Rob
Very much enjoyed your posts ITJock. Thanks for sharing the experiences. I'm not so pessimistic about an athlete(s) coming out eventually. I guess I have more patience than most.
And your advice for meeting athletes seems pretty sound for meeting people and making friends in general.
[ May 11, 2004, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
And your advice for meeting athletes seems pretty sound for meeting people and making friends in general.
[ May 11, 2004, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
QUOTE
ITJock:
A couple of people have written asking how to meet a pro athlete - I assume because they are hoping to find out whether or not...
You're very kind. I'd assume they're groupie wannabes. wink
A couple of people have written asking how to meet a pro athlete - I assume because they are hoping to find out whether or not...
Like everyone's experiences with meeting people, my past experience with dating (a few) professional athletes differs somewhat from ITJock's.
As I think I have mentioned here before, I kindasorta grew up in the pro jock world being that my dad and his cousin both played pro ball for awhile. Not to mention a sister who was up there in collegiate track and field, and a few more uncles who were college hoop standouts. By the time I was born, my dad was just getting out of the pros, but a lot of the older men I grew up around were pros or top collegiate players, coaches or those involved in the sports industry somehow. And, although I was only a very small shadow of the athlete that the older men in my life were, I did manage to play basketball/run track for a Div I college team. So, I guess it was only natural for me to gravitate toward really, really good athletes, and maybe even vice versa.
As far as the sexuality thing goes, this may sound a bit arrogant, and I don't intend it this way at all, but I actually have had more pro/collegiate guys approach me than the other way around. Looking back, I think there were a myriad of reasons why this happened: (1) my dad's name meant a lot in sports in the area where I am from, and people involved in athletics took a real shine to me over that; (2) my sisters are/were real hotties and guys were always trying to go through me to get The Hookup; (3) I was always very active and friendly and popular and all that Marcia Brady-like stuff in school, so there were always a number of reasons why people would talk to me; (4) I always did very well academically in school, and "dumb jocks" would always want me to tutor them, "help them" or cheat off me; (5) they had gay-dar and could figure out what was up with me, even when I wasn't quite ready to figure it out; (6) I was just too damn irresistible.
I like to think it was always the last one. wink
Anyway, some examples of how I met the pros for dates were:
The first, we went to the same college. He was in the locker room and I saw him undressing and kept uncomfortably glancing over at him. He noticed, came by my room to study, accidentally on purpose fell asleep in the empty bunk bed, and the rest was history. Oh, he later ended up being a top round draft pick for the NFL. We're still friends, but he does not consider himself homosexual or gay, and is married with kids.
I went home one summer while in grad school. At the time, I was still dating women. The girl I was dating told me, to make me jealous I suppose, that she met this guy who played for The Rams who wanted to date her. Anyway, that night I dropped her off at home, and went to a straight club, and -- coincidentally -- who is staring at me while hitting on some girl but this very same NFL player that my girlfriend met! I smiled at him, he started talking to me at the pool table later, he gave me his number, I memorized it, called him, and the rest is history. By the way, he turned out to be a total jerk. Good sex, though. He does not consider himself homosexual, or even bi. "Just a freak", as he puts it.
Another time, I was coming out of a gay bar in the city I lived in at the time, and this guy in his car in the parking lot got out of his car and started staring at me like a lunatic or like he was afraid to speak. I kept moving toward my vehicle when he finally nodded his head as if to say "What's up", so I reluctantly went over to him and we started talking. The conversation turned into a Denny's meal, and he was so cryptic about why he was in town visiting. The next day, I invited him over my place and he saw my dad's picture and asked me how I knew him. When I told him, he freaked and started spilling his guts -- he was in town for his team's training camp. Anyway, we "dated" for a few months until I found out he had a boyfriend back home, then I dumped him. As karma would have it, he played for only one more season before he got cut and is now probably doing something far more worthy of him - janitorial services.
I have a few more stories on pro guys, but I guess I should save those for the book. wink
Anyhoo, I hope those guys who actualy e-mailed ITJock asking how they, too, could meet and date a pro athlete were not serious. That sounds a bit off the wall and a little creepy. Meeting a professional athlete who would then be interested and available to date/f**k you is no different than meeting some other rare breed like a famous movie star, a supermodel, or a high-profile politician or a Fortune 500 CEO power broker. People like that tend to hang within their own circles of comfort; people who have common interests/activities and about as much to lose as they do. Although it does sound a bit fascist, I agree with whomever on this thread said "love the regular guy that you're with" instead of plotting about how to meet some NBA player. I have known plenty of female groupies of professional athletes (I lovingly call them "pro ho's"), and it's cool when they are 21 or 22 years old, but when they hit 30 or so, and they're still trying to starf**k or marry a jock or become his baby momma (like Susan Sarandon in "Bull Durham"), they are some real Sad Sacks. I'd imagine it would be just as bad, if not worse, for a male groupie.
[ September 26, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
As I think I have mentioned here before, I kindasorta grew up in the pro jock world being that my dad and his cousin both played pro ball for awhile. Not to mention a sister who was up there in collegiate track and field, and a few more uncles who were college hoop standouts. By the time I was born, my dad was just getting out of the pros, but a lot of the older men I grew up around were pros or top collegiate players, coaches or those involved in the sports industry somehow. And, although I was only a very small shadow of the athlete that the older men in my life were, I did manage to play basketball/run track for a Div I college team. So, I guess it was only natural for me to gravitate toward really, really good athletes, and maybe even vice versa.
As far as the sexuality thing goes, this may sound a bit arrogant, and I don't intend it this way at all, but I actually have had more pro/collegiate guys approach me than the other way around. Looking back, I think there were a myriad of reasons why this happened: (1) my dad's name meant a lot in sports in the area where I am from, and people involved in athletics took a real shine to me over that; (2) my sisters are/were real hotties and guys were always trying to go through me to get The Hookup; (3) I was always very active and friendly and popular and all that Marcia Brady-like stuff in school, so there were always a number of reasons why people would talk to me; (4) I always did very well academically in school, and "dumb jocks" would always want me to tutor them, "help them" or cheat off me; (5) they had gay-dar and could figure out what was up with me, even when I wasn't quite ready to figure it out; (6) I was just too damn irresistible.
I like to think it was always the last one. wink
Anyway, some examples of how I met the pros for dates were:
The first, we went to the same college. He was in the locker room and I saw him undressing and kept uncomfortably glancing over at him. He noticed, came by my room to study, accidentally on purpose fell asleep in the empty bunk bed, and the rest was history. Oh, he later ended up being a top round draft pick for the NFL. We're still friends, but he does not consider himself homosexual or gay, and is married with kids.
I went home one summer while in grad school. At the time, I was still dating women. The girl I was dating told me, to make me jealous I suppose, that she met this guy who played for The Rams who wanted to date her. Anyway, that night I dropped her off at home, and went to a straight club, and -- coincidentally -- who is staring at me while hitting on some girl but this very same NFL player that my girlfriend met! I smiled at him, he started talking to me at the pool table later, he gave me his number, I memorized it, called him, and the rest is history. By the way, he turned out to be a total jerk. Good sex, though. He does not consider himself homosexual, or even bi. "Just a freak", as he puts it.
Another time, I was coming out of a gay bar in the city I lived in at the time, and this guy in his car in the parking lot got out of his car and started staring at me like a lunatic or like he was afraid to speak. I kept moving toward my vehicle when he finally nodded his head as if to say "What's up", so I reluctantly went over to him and we started talking. The conversation turned into a Denny's meal, and he was so cryptic about why he was in town visiting. The next day, I invited him over my place and he saw my dad's picture and asked me how I knew him. When I told him, he freaked and started spilling his guts -- he was in town for his team's training camp. Anyway, we "dated" for a few months until I found out he had a boyfriend back home, then I dumped him. As karma would have it, he played for only one more season before he got cut and is now probably doing something far more worthy of him - janitorial services.
I have a few more stories on pro guys, but I guess I should save those for the book. wink
Anyhoo, I hope those guys who actualy e-mailed ITJock asking how they, too, could meet and date a pro athlete were not serious. That sounds a bit off the wall and a little creepy. Meeting a professional athlete who would then be interested and available to date/f**k you is no different than meeting some other rare breed like a famous movie star, a supermodel, or a high-profile politician or a Fortune 500 CEO power broker. People like that tend to hang within their own circles of comfort; people who have common interests/activities and about as much to lose as they do. Although it does sound a bit fascist, I agree with whomever on this thread said "love the regular guy that you're with" instead of plotting about how to meet some NBA player. I have known plenty of female groupies of professional athletes (I lovingly call them "pro ho's"), and it's cool when they are 21 or 22 years old, but when they hit 30 or so, and they're still trying to starf**k or marry a jock or become his baby momma (like Susan Sarandon in "Bull Durham"), they are some real Sad Sacks. I'd imagine it would be just as bad, if not worse, for a male groupie.
[ September 26, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
Hey Yella Dawg:
Very entertaining and informative stuff.
Very entertaining and informative stuff.
QUOTE
YellaDawg:
I have a few more stories on pro guys, but I guess I should save those for the book. wink
Yella Dawg--I'd really love to hear any other stories like the previous ones - even without names they are very interesting. wink
I have a few more stories on pro guys, but I guess I should save those for the book. wink
Cool stories as usual YellaDawg, but I guess I'm still a bit more optimistic than you seem to be about this culture eventually coming out into the open. For some of us who would like to meet folks like that it's not so much about dating a "star" as finding someone who physically, mentally and spirituality compliments you. It's also not all about sex but wanting to "have a life" in which one could be friends and/or lovers. I would think life in the closet could be very lonely no matter how many times you hook up. Some of these "stars" must need more I hope.
Wow. What a great thread.
I can't imagine a scenario where a current pro-athlete would come out, based on what ya'll have said.
Professional athletes already have the threat of extreme public exposure (and the subsequent lack of privacy). Their professional performance is in the public domain. Very few of us can relate to this potential stress.
To be an "out" gay athlete would be a double-whammy. Not only would thier professional performance invite scrutiny, but their personal relations would double, triple the stress of media and public scrutiny, public or private.
Who could possibly benefit from coming out? Why would you do it?
To those posters who have been involved with and respected the privacy of professional athletes, I honor and respect you for understanding their situation and predicament.
In this age of faux "openness", Jerry Springer, and public spectacle, you've chosen to maintain an honorable discretion. Uncommon valor, I'd say.
I can't imagine a scenario where a current pro-athlete would come out, based on what ya'll have said.
Professional athletes already have the threat of extreme public exposure (and the subsequent lack of privacy). Their professional performance is in the public domain. Very few of us can relate to this potential stress.
To be an "out" gay athlete would be a double-whammy. Not only would thier professional performance invite scrutiny, but their personal relations would double, triple the stress of media and public scrutiny, public or private.
Who could possibly benefit from coming out? Why would you do it?
To those posters who have been involved with and respected the privacy of professional athletes, I honor and respect you for understanding their situation and predicament.
In this age of faux "openness", Jerry Springer, and public spectacle, you've chosen to maintain an honorable discretion. Uncommon valor, I'd say.
QUOTE
sportinlife:
For some of us who would like to meet folks like that it's not so much about dating a \"star\" as finding someone who physically, mentally and spirituality compliments you. It's also not all about sex but wanting to \"have a life\" in which one could be friends and/or lovers.
Understandable about the love life thing. But my point -- I think -- was that someone being a pro athlete has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether they physically, mentally or spiritually complement you. It seems like a few posters here might suffer from what I think is called "transference" (I may be wrong about the psych term... it wasn't my major For some of us who would like to meet folks like that it's not so much about dating a \"star\" as finding someone who physically, mentally and spirituality compliments you. It's also not all about sex but wanting to \"have a life\" in which one could be friends and/or lovers.
): taking qualities that you like and unnecessarily attaching them to someone you admire. Whatever the correct psychological term is for that, that's what you're doing here.I don't know if I agree that The Closet is such a lonely place. After all, there a LOT of people in it. It might not be such an emotionally healthy place, but it surely isn't an empty or lonely one. But proverbially coming out of The Closet, IMHO, doesn't magically make someone's negative issues about self-identity, sexuality, self-worth, etc., just go away. In fact, and this may be a minority view at a site such as this one, but I know just as many out and proud gays and lesbians who are total f**k-ups, mental cases and absolute zeros, as I do deeply closeted ones. I am sure what I just said is considered blasphemy in some gay parts, but hey, it might just be The Big Secret that the Out Contingent just doesn't want you to know: that some homosexuals don't disclose their sexuality publically not because they are cowering in some deep, dark closet in fear, but because that's just one aspect of their life that does not define them and that they don't think it's really anyone else's business.
Of course, being an African-American and Latino, who prefers to date men who are men of color, that surely "colors" my view of The Closet. Sportinlife, I don't know where you got the idea that I think The Closet doors in sports will be wildly and happily flung open some time really soon. On the contrary, with so many Black men involved in football, basketball, and track, and so many Latinos involved in baseball, you can rest assured that, due to our culture's differing views about openness of homosexuality and our rejection/reluctance of embracement of "gayness", that most men who do play the high profile professional sports will probably have to come out of The Closet kicking and screaming. And I'm not down with that tactic at all (unless the person makes some public insult about gays or something).
If I had to keep score, I'd say that about 2/3 of the men I know who have sex with other men are closeted, or that dumb overused "DL" phrase. This list includes politicians, entertainers, mailmen, prisoners, teachers, sales clerks, gardeners, policemen, lawyers, chefs, and yes, athletes. Let's cut the closeted athletes a break. They're not superheroes, and they're not cowards either. They just happen to play a sport really, really well, and are in the public eye, and in most cases, make a bit of money, because of it.
Here's some food for thought for the room:
Instead of looking to some pro jock or celebrity to be your gay role model, maybe you can be the role model for some closeted guy by living your life as a gay man or lesbian exemplarily and impeccably. And that, in turn, may indirectly lead to other non-stereotypically gay men and women coming to their own positive self-realizations.
I think you're reading a lot into my brief comments Yelladawg. I didn't propose outing anyone. My promotion of openness is a critcism of the society, especially in the black and latino community (to which I did not limit my thoughts or comments, but you mention them) that denigrates a person for either their sexual orientation or lifestyle choice. The psychological term you refer to is totally out of my league since I know little about it and prefer to be responsible for my own sanity as long as it is not affected by some abnormal physical event.
I always wondered how many of these pro athletes who are either bi or gay actually settle down and get married and have kids. I remember back in my college days that I noticed a very well-known pitcher (retired now)who was definitely making some serious eye contact (and eye to penis contact) while using the urinals at the airport. At the time (I was 19) I thought of it as a bit strange but looking back now it was not your normal checking out your bud's equipment. I am 100% sure this guy was who I say he is so there's no confusion on that part. This guy has never had any rumors circulate about him to my knowledge so perhaps there are others who fit this profile as well. Any thoughts?
[ September 28, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: libaseballjock ]
[ September 28, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: libaseballjock ]
QUOTE
libaseballjock:
I remember back in my college days that I noticed a very well-known pitcher (retired now)who was definitely making some serious eye contact (and eye to penis contact) while using the urinals at the airport. At the time (I was 19) I thought of it as a bit strange but looking back now it was not your normal checking out your bud's equipment. I am 100% sure this guy was who I say he is so there's no confusion on that part. This guy has never had any rumors circulate about him to my knowledge so perhaps there are others who fit this profile as well. Any thoughts?
Only that your penultimate sentence takes Jim Palmer out of consideration. I remember back in my college days that I noticed a very well-known pitcher (retired now)who was definitely making some serious eye contact (and eye to penis contact) while using the urinals at the airport. At the time (I was 19) I thought of it as a bit strange but looking back now it was not your normal checking out your bud's equipment. I am 100% sure this guy was who I say he is so there's no confusion on that part. This guy has never had any rumors circulate about him to my knowledge so perhaps there are others who fit this profile as well. Any thoughts?
What's he been up to lately, BTW? Last I saw him, he was pitching mortgages on TV with his wife.
An interesting related story for the room...
Saturday evening I went to a wedding. Some upscale upcoming entertainment industry execs got married, a friend of mine invited me, and I, never wanting to miss a career op, could not resist.
At the reception, I was seated at what was coined the "fun table": lots of single girls and guys. And seated right next to me was a "pro ho": a really cute girl in her 20's whose specialty is dating baseball players. She was a dead ringer for Leah Rimini of "King of Queens". It didn't take us long to bond as we determined quickly how much we had in common.
During the course of our conversation, the name of a very famous ball player came up. I told her I thought he was mighty fine, and she said: "Oh, you can have him. He's definitely gay. All the other ball players and female groupies already know it. He was actually dating ******** (insert a semi-famous person's name who isn't even worthy to carry his cleats in here), and they had a HUGE public quarrel in front of everyone a few weeks ago."
OK, so as Alicia Silverstone said in Clueless: "Project!"
[ September 29, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
Saturday evening I went to a wedding. Some upscale upcoming entertainment industry execs got married, a friend of mine invited me, and I, never wanting to miss a career op, could not resist.
At the reception, I was seated at what was coined the "fun table": lots of single girls and guys. And seated right next to me was a "pro ho": a really cute girl in her 20's whose specialty is dating baseball players. She was a dead ringer for Leah Rimini of "King of Queens". It didn't take us long to bond as we determined quickly how much we had in common.
During the course of our conversation, the name of a very famous ball player came up. I told her I thought he was mighty fine, and she said: "Oh, you can have him. He's definitely gay. All the other ball players and female groupies already know it. He was actually dating ******** (insert a semi-famous person's name who isn't even worthy to carry his cleats in here), and they had a HUGE public quarrel in front of everyone a few weeks ago."
OK, so as Alicia Silverstone said in Clueless: "Project!"
[ September 29, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
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