I want to thank Randy Boyd for his column, which compellingly discusses the specific issue of Black athletes coming out. There have been a very few--there was the football player, Roy Simmons, who came out on Phil Donahue's show years ago (I even taped this I was so amazed by it). More recently, Carl Lewis outed himself (as if there were any doubt) on "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire." Otherwise, even retired Black athletes appear reluctant to be more out, even if, it seems, they're not at risk of losing sponsorship contracts, etc.

In terms of women athletes, WNBA appears chock-full of lesbians, but the closet door on that league seems nailed shut--for now.

I really do think it would extra tough for Black players--like players of any race or ethnicity--in Major League Baseball, the NBA, and the NFL to come out, because the level of homophobia, among the players, the fans, and the owners, strikes me as pretty solid. I think it wouldn't be easy for a Latino athlete either. The NHL, as tough as it is, might be a better route, though I doubt it. Boxing is an individual sport, but its very ethos is machismo. Roy Jones, break the mold! Felix Trinidad, show us another way....

As far as other individual sports go, such as tennis, track and field, etc., perhaps a few more Black men and women will come out in the next few years. James Blake? Serena Williams? (I think Tiger Woods is as straight as a telephone pole, so he's not a candidate.)

Whoa, fantomas I'm really mising "out". Didn't know anything about Carl Lewis on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire".

As far as it being more difficult for black athletes to come out I think that could play either way. Yes it's a double whammy but they also have previous experience with prejudice. Maybe practice makes perfect as in sports.

I hear you Sportinlife; all Black folks have to deal with prejudice and racism from day one. I think this may make it tougher for some folks, because they may say, I already have to deal with racism, so why do I need to bring on the homophobes, even though by not coming out, they *are* still being affected by the homophobia. But like I said, I don't think it's easy for anyone, especially pro athletes. Someone brave and willing to risk it all will come along eventually, though.

(And Carl Lewis did introduce the guy there with him as his "partner," I thought.)

I can't remember Carl Lewis's exact wording, but it was very clear that the man in Lewis's "friend's seat" was his partner. Lewis spoke about all the time he and his partner spent in his "sister-in-law's" hospital room, even sleeping on the floor a number of nights. Hey, if you're sleeping on a hospital room floor night after night, I think that can only be true love.

Having not seen the Millionaire show in question, I have to say that as far as I'm concerned Carl Lewis is not out. He may have called the guy his partner but I bet lots of people took that to mean "business partner." For me to consider him out, he needs to make it known more clearly than that.

I think Lewis was pretty clear. I can remember hearing back in the 1980s that he was gay, and that at one point, some rough trade had smashed "his entire crystal collection"--I guess he has a taste for finely cut glass. Michael Musto, in his "La Dolce Vita" column in "The Village Voice" (NY) has written more than once of Lewis's being out at various New York gay venues, with little protest from Lewis. I think it's a Rosie O'Donnell kind of outness--he's not broadcasting it, but he's also not denying it at this point. I wish some of the other track stars, like Maurice Green, would come out--if they're homo, that is.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]

This thread raises the question of "What does it mean to be out?"

For me the most important, and only necessary one, in coming out is to be honest with yourself about who you are. Everything else is secondary and incidental. Let it happen as events dictate.

It's bad to lie, but also bad to use the truth "selectively" with the intent to obfuscate. Sometimes people who claim to have pure motives in "outing" are merely indulging in self-righteous grandstanding.

I know this is a hot button issue in the gay community but heck what good is free speech ifyou aren't gonna use it. That's my piece.

I hear you, sportinlife. There are degrees of "outness," and some people who are out never announce it as such, in part because they don't make a big deal about it. I don't think Carl Lewis has been on the DL for a while--during his incredible Olympics run, he more flaunted his flamboyance, and had to pay a steep price (no American endorsements, etc.) for it.

Most homo pro athletes *are* on the DL, though--as are many, many people in our society.

The philosopher Richard Mohr, in GAY IDEAS, has a fascinating essay on "outing" that I urge everyone to read. One of the points he makes is that being "out(ed)" allows you to be(come) a "subject of dignity." You are able to say, not only just to yourself, but to the world, this is who I am and *I* respect and accept it--I acknowledge it.

Dennis Rodman seemed much happier after he admitted publicly that homosexuality was more than a mere curiosity of his. It didn't destroy him--it may actually have made him more popular and interesting to people. But he had already been paving the way with unconventional behavior (like that wedding dress stunt, which I loved), and it helped that he was/is married to a beautiful woman.

Even if few team-sports players are willing to come out, I wish a few more athletes of color from individual sports would do so. This would say to young homo people in a powerful way that their role models--not that athletes are the only ones, mind you--come in all colors, from all backgrounds. You can imagine yourself as Greg Louganis, as Tracy Chapman, as Ludwig Wittgenstein, as Johnny Mathis, as Dag Hammarskjøld, as Audre Lorde, as Federico Garcia Lorca, as anyone you want to be--you don't have to look just to one type of person or model as a homosexual. And you CAN live with dignity, despite the homophobia, as a homosexual, just as you can live with dignity and confidence as a Black or Latino or Asian or Native or mixed person, despite racism.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]

[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
Dennis Rodman seemed much happier after he admitted publicly that homosexuality was more than a mere curiosity of his. It didn't destroy him--it may actually have made him more popular and interesting to people. But he had already been paving the way with unconventional behavior (like that wedding dress stunt, which I loved), and it helped that he was/is married to a beautiful woman.

---

Did I miss something here? Rodman admitted to what, exactly?

I can't find the exact reference, but I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that in his book and in his ADVOCATE interview his admissions of interest in homosexuality, even though he supposedly had never acted upon it. He also fessed up to attending gay clubs--but just to dance and hang out, not hook up with anyone.

NOt that it means anything except a desire to gain attention, but there was the T-shirt he wore during a TV interview: "I don't mind straight people as long as they act gay in public."

I've enjoyed reading this thread - thanks Fantomas for your posts. The whole "on the down low" thing is interesting. In some ways, it is a much needed criticsm of the all too the same "gay community" (i.e. gay=white). But I have to wonder if it's also steeped in internalized homophobia (that is systemic in nature by church, family, etc). Tracy Chapman was mentioned in a recent post, and I've always been frustrated with her low profile on being gay. She of course does not have to do anything (but wake up black in the morning!), but she could do more (how about being a grand Marshall @ Pride?).

Aznbutch, I agree with you that the "down low" thing does in some ways function as a critique against "mainstream gayness," or the idea that being "gay" means being "out," scrubbed of racial identifaction, cultural associations, and any sense of performative subversion. But I think that DL, no matter what anyone says, also IS a function of homophobia and heterosexism, because so many of these DL folks obsess about being "clocked," being identified by any terms relating to homosexuality ("same-gender-loving," which is one Black term, or adodi, etc.), and showing marked contempt for effeminate, or even performatively masculine but non-DL brothas. It's not as if they're just saying, "I have sex with men and women and that's who I am." It's--I have to keep my sh*t on the DOWN LOW so that nobody except other DL bros know. This secrecy isn't the same thing as privacy--it's a secrecy aligned with shame, fear and the closet, I think, and corrosive in so many ways.

My question is, aren't there other options for POCs? Does it have to swing between either an extreme endless circus-like performance of an anodyne, ethnic-and-race-free (homo)sexuality, and this updated hypermasculine version of the closet? One thing I like about an out brotha like Keith Boykin, for example, to give one example, is that he hasn't sacrificed his racial identity as a Black man, but he also doesn't feel that he has to operate on the DL--he *is* out and was even an official in the Clinton administration. But folks like him in the public eye are too rare, unfortunately.

Traci Chapman may not lead any mainstream Pride Parades, which some Black and Latino folks I know disdain, again because they view them as so "white"-focused (though there are Black and Latino Pride events all over the country). But Traci did openly appear at the Black Women in the Academy conference some years ago with her then-girlfriend, Pulitzer Przie-winning author Alice Walker. And for many years she has not denied her homosexuality, as so many have. What is the deal with Queen Latifah? M.C. Lyte? Missy Elliot? Who she gettin her freak on wit? Whitney Houston and Robin? With all these celebs? Not that I care about their personal lives, but at another level, their being out says, "There is nothing shameful about being who you are." That is one of the most powerful statements about outness--Rosie O'Donnell made this clear yet again two weeks ago.

As Essex Hemphill once wrote, "Do not feel shame for how I live." More power to all the brothas and sistas (and hermanos y hermanos) who are brave enough to be themselves, be out, be open. They are beacons.

[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
I can't find the exact reference, but I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that in his book and in his ADVOCATE interview his admissions of interest in homosexuality, even though he supposedly had never acted upon it. He also fessed up to attending gay clubs--but just to dance and hang out, not hook up with anyone.

---

Then he hasn't admitted anything that he hadn't admitted years before in an article in Sports Illustrated. He's cool with gay people and does stuff to attract attention, but that's it.

I've noticed on AOL there is now a chat room called "DL Thugs". Whereas I agree wholeheartedly with Fantomas about the shame and silence of being on the down low, don't you think it's cool that there seems to be this new space being carved out for folks to "practice same sex desire" as I've heard it referred to lately?

Hey Aznbutch, the "DL Thug" phenomenon has been around for about some time. There're all kinds of "homothug" and "homiesexual", etc. sites, sparked in part by James L. Hardy's "B-Boy Blues" novels. But the homo-thug, banjee boy, b-boy, hardrock, etc. thing goes back a while--it's another hypermasculine superhard--and in this case, Black-Latino--version of clonedom, I think. There are even lots--LOTS--of videos, the site thugcam.com, and so on.

What about OUT thugs?

How interesting to think of it as the black and latino version of clonedome. Hmm. Well, now that we've veered completely off topic...who is the audience for the aforementioned videos? If it's other men of color (out or not)then I think that's very cool -another space carved out beyond the whiteboy circuit party scene/west hollywood muscle twinks.

I still remember King Carl trying to hit on me at a couple of European meets. Ewwww! Now Maurice can hit on me all he wants!

And Fantomas. Let me just this about a certain linksman. Your evaluation of his candidacy is completely wrong. Some day this story shall break, and the sports world...all of the world will really be shocked.

And let me just say, there are a LOT of gay guys running track

I'm interrupting this thread for a little lite refreshment

http://tysonbeckford.freehosting.net/cgi-b...soninundies.jpg

For those who need more

The Tyson Beckford Site.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Tyson Beckford--so beautiful and sexy he makes both the eyes and nads hurt! No matter what anyone says, I'll take him over Tyrese any day.

The LaMancha videos are targeted primarily to Blacks and Latinos. The most recent is "Hardcore: Thug Passion I"--you can find it and other classics like "Tiger's Brooklyn Tales," "Off Da Hook 1 & 2" and "Aprendé" on www.enriquecruz.com.

Okay--now, where were we? Oh--linksman....

Are you saying that a certain young Eldrick Woods is not ramrod straight? Hmmmm. He did have his stunning Swedish model girlfriend (beard?) hanging around the Players' course. Was he experimenting Stanford? I wouldn't be surprised.

What about Latino athletes? What's the deal with Juan "Igor" Gonzalez? Oscar de la Hoya? Hector "Macho" Camacho? Inquiring minds....