Thought this article might interest some folks.

That's pretty much a rehash of most of the articles I've read. But, the poll is what interested me the most. As I expected, the PGA tour was the top vote getter for "What sport will have the first out gay male athlete?" But I wonder what the prevailing reasoning on that poll is, because I can see two possibilities. Is it that people recognize it would be easier in an individual sport, or do they just not see golf as a "manly" sport?

It is a rehash for us but maybe not rehash for the mainstream. Atleast it seems like a positive piece.

I have a feeling it's gonna be NHL. A lot of Canadian players and it's legal to get married there. Maybe it's wishful thinking... I'm still waiting for Lindros to pop the question...lol

[ November 02, 2005, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Maddog ]

I too knew it would be the PGA by a landslide ... I'd guess that it's for both of those reasons. Especially given the alternative choices. They should have thrown tennis in there too so that there wouldn't be one less manly, individual sport to get all the votes by default.

My thought was the MLB. I think if the PGA hadn't have been up there, it would have gone to the MLB by default, just because of the enormous number of players in the league.

i referenced this story in the swoopes thread. i voted for golf in the poll because it's not as macho oriented as the other sports, seems easier for someone to be themself in the sport. then i immediately thought of how men hide their sexuality inside of macho-ism, so then i though nhl, but I don't really see someone coming up throught the system fully out and proud, and not really once in the system either.

I thnik the agrument that some stellar high school player with an early acceptance of his sexuality who comes through the system will be the most likely first out player. Maybe tehn in baseball or basketball.

I'd guess the NHL -- it seems there are already a fair number of gay men (or, at least, men who have sex with other men) playing; plus there's the Canada piece, and there's the fact that the NHL could def use something to generate interest these days, and also one imagines that, if I'm right and there are a number of men in the sport actively sexual with other men, the implicit threat of harming one could lead to the outting and/or harming of another (the harm-er's teammate?) and so might help control gay-bashing on the ice. Maybe more of a hope than a guess, but only b/c I don't think an out PGA player would amount to much -- def not b/c I want me some hockey stick.

I've heard that mentioned about the PGA as well, that it would have the first out player on the men's side. Yet I wonder. Even though this has changed somewhat because of the slightly skewed age demographics of golfers today (the Tiger generation,) golf is an extremely conservative sport. Read any of the books about golf prior to Tiger, and every single golfer is a strict Republican and devout Christian. Feinstein reports on one special meeting a Ryder cup team had to have in the early 90's (93, I'm thinking, I don't have the book in front of me) because President Clinton wanted to visit with them for a moment to give them a pep talk and they threw a fit because all of them were Republicans and did not want to talk to or visit with the man. They had to have a meeting to convince them to simply meet with the president of the United States for five minutes to get a little pep talk, and many of the players were suggesting boycotting the meeting. And while this has changed somewhat with the advent of a younger generation coming onto the Tour and finding success at a younger age, I'd wager that the rank and file and administration of golf is still extremely conservative and any golfer who is gay would feel more pressure to keep his mouth shut. I'd suggest that golf is as "family values" oriented as NASCAR and would be one of the least likely places for an athlete to come out.

Having said that, I could see a golfer coming out who plays regularly on the European or Australasian Tour more readily, so it could be a golfer, but if it was the PGA I'd be pretty surprised.

Medievalist: what you said. Yes.

I also think golf for the same reasons others have stated. Also, golf has more of an age range and, I may be wrong, but I think a man in his 30s or thereabouts is more comfortable being open than a man in his teens or 20s, which a lot of athletes in the team sports are. As for them being conservative and Christian, isn't there a cluster of white gay men among the neocons? And for that matter on this board?

jockpop, what is the diffence as you see it between gay men and men who have sex with men.

I extend the benefit of the doubt in Phillanthropics case. He is giving of himself. He is putting himself out there to try and provoke thoughts. I appreciate his sacrifice and selflessness.

I know he really is a world class athlete still trying to pursue his love and sport while being an openly gay man, well an openly obnoxious and gay man. I only hope to someday be as strong as our parading PhillyFan.

I just try to understand that I do not know the hardships and struggles of a gay athlete and internet queen. Someday I too may learn how to be completely sexist and claim to not be sexist. I don't know if I can label every woman that disagrees with me as a man-hater. Some day I must face these inadequacies. I must deal with them head on and realize my potential as a downtrodden white male. frown

"diffence as you see it between gay men and men who have sex with men."

What I meant here was that some men identify as gay, while others don't, but still have sex with other men. I don't care to make the judgement as to "identity." On the other hand, I suspect that the mere fact that two men have engaged in sex is likely to inspire a lot of others to think of them as "gay," no matter what they might think of themselves. Most especially I suspect that folks who think being gay is not a good thing are not going to make distinctions between "two men having sex" and "gay men." So for those folks one won't have to "own" one's sexual identity in order for them to identify you as gay.

I agree with Maddog about the likely first gay "American" male athlete to come out while playing will probably be Canadian, for the reason given: the attitude of Canadians, especially French-culture Canadians, toward sexuality. Australian Ian Roberts is already the first. However I would be surprised if that American is a hockey player. The culture internationally is just too rough and dangerous. Look at the injuries to straight players. Unfortunately other sports aren't huge.

hi,
don't post here very much, but wanted to chime in here. I think that it is very likely that hockey will have the first openly gay athlete. First, as stated, you have the fact that canadians tend to be more liberal and accepting. however, even from the American side, hockey players are almost a cult. They are already separated from society's mainstream by the fact that they are into hockey. This may seem like an overstatement, but any hockey guys in this forum will probably agree that whatever differences they have with someone, if he is a hockey guy, you usually get along well. I think this phenomenon would help an out player be accepted by the league. Also, I would say that hockey is more team oriented than any other sport (other than rugby or something like that). Football has offense and defense, basketball is full of one on one battles, but hockey is a whole team working together. I think hockey players would be willing to accept a gay player as long as they were a team player. One last note, I think all of this is demonstrated by the large number of gay teams in the U.S. that participate and "straight" leagues and have very few problems. I don't think this would be true in baseball or football. Hockey players just tend to get along with other hockey players.

Interesting comments from Seattle-area jocks.

Seahawks QB Matt Hasselbeck:
"Obviously, right now if you go around the corner, there are 20 guys in the shower, and there are only 15 shower heads," he said. "It's a little uncomfortable right now for heterosexuals. ... It's a tough one.

"It would depend. If someone is professional about their job and is choosing to have the same focus you're focused on -- winning football games -- (then) great."

We also have more in Jock Talk.

Huh? Didn't Greg Louganis and Rudy Galindo come out while still competing, and well before Ian Roberts, or are you just talking about *team* sports?

The PGA is very conservative. I'd say pro hockey or pro soccer will be first of the team sports, and track and field certainly has gay men, lesbians and even transgender people competing. I always though Lennox Lewis, the self-described "pugilist specialist," was going to knock down the door in his sport but I guess not.

[ November 02, 2005, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Sorry. Obviously I didn't specify "major team sport". It gets cumbersome to keep including all the adjectives.

I don't want to belittle the courage of any athlete who chooses to live his life honestly, but team and money sports are the most difficult.

I am fascinated by the ideas of a hockey player coming out, and by the openness of Canadians, especially the French-Canadians. I guess since I'm not a hockey fan, I don't understand the team ethos, but I'm glad to be learning about it because as some have stated here, it seems to override the great hurdle of homosexuality and macho-ism. So what looks to me as the roughest, toughest, never-go-on-the-ice sport could indeed be the most accepting. Fascinating.

The most honets and realistic assessment I've read since this all started, a quote from Sonics player Nick Collison:

Me loves me some Nick Collison. A breath of fresh air!

About the locker room "fear," I recall a couple of years back, Dan Patrick asked Rob Dibble and Sean Salisbury what it would have been like if a player on eirther of their teams had come out. Dibble said he had played with gay teammates and it wasn't a big deal. He stressed that everyone is a target for crude jokes in the locker room (that's why it's called locker room humor) and that no one can afford to be thin-skinned in a locker room. He added that some guys avoided the gay player, adding that (as in all workplaces) people with similar interests develop friendships and have less to do with others. As for the shower issue, he said it was an issue for all of one day and then didn't matter anymore. He said the big thing he learned there was "we all have one and none are that unique." Overall, he stressed the big deal would be with the media circus rather than the internal politics on a team.

~Adam

Makes sense doesn't it? It's very true when people say that most of the kids in my generation just don't care anymore.

That's what they all say 'til they catch you checking out their booty Salisbury has always been a breath of fresh air among sports commentators: His Esera Tuaolo article is classic

the first male player to come out will play for a major metro team--not a team like Kansas City or Jacksonville--in a fairly liberal area like New York or LA or San Fran

I don't think the team reaction will matter as much as fan reaction. These guys are "role models" contrary to what Charles Barkley may believe. If fans, especially parents, accept this, then others will come out.

If fans don't accept it, then the owners will definately put a stop to it.

Not sure where to put this Toronto Star article since it covers multiple issues (gays in sports, hollywood, media, politics, etc.), but I'll put it here since it has a pic of Scott Thompson as a Leaf cowering in the closet. Outsports is mentioned in the article, too.

Wow, I've had to catch up on a lot of posts, especially the Sheryl Swoopes story. First of all, congratulations to her, I'm happy for her. I don't think her honesty will endanger her career or her endorsements, at least not any time soon. But as for this particular post, I've said in the past that a gay athlete in a team sport will not come out any time soon. At this moment, I still hold to that view. Someone said earlier that he may come out in a liberal city such as New York or LA but even then I have my doubts. Remember, he'll have to play in other stadiums such as Kansas City or Green Bay. Ah well.

This is a great discussion. I believe Lennox Lewis is gay and still believe he might come out now that he's done. Wait and see.

Agree about golf being ultra-conservative and Christian. Sometimes I suspect it is actually more so than NASCAR. Are there any guys less attractive than golfers (no).

Agree about hockey, first because it's marginalized in the U.S. and second because it will be some tough guy enforcer type who can protect himself (and his teammates) who will be the one.

When a male tennis player comes out it will be minimized because the sport is perceived as wimpy. Of course as anyone who has played or been in the presence of Roger Federer's abs or Rafael Nadal's biceps knows....it's physically grueling. Both of those guys ping my gaydar, too. So does old Jim Courier. Gay, gay, gay.

No one will think it's "the big story" until it's a famous football, basketball or baseball player. The stories about Kordell Stewart might be true. But baseball is still the gayest sport. Gayer than figure skating, lol. So many of those guys seem gay. Mike Piazza....now married...still gay.

How silly these guys sound when they get defensive about "the showers." What knuckleheads. The unexplored topic in the media is how homoerotic sports participation is.

An excerpt from an article entitled "Gay Jocks Don't Feel Phobia" in the November issue of Outlooks magazine:

What many people don’t know is that gay jocks don’t really experience homophobia. John Ainey joined a non-oriented (straight) softball league this past summer but isn’t joining again, because of how poorly it was run, NOT because he experienced any homophobia. “I play on gay friendly teams because they’re better organized and well supported by the community,” he says. Ainey is involved with many different Toronto gay sports teams including soccer,volleyball, and softball. Sometimes the issue is about choosing what to do in sports based on what you want and how skilled you believe you are. Bernie Finnigean grew up in northern Québec had stopped playing sports when he was twelve but not because of his sexuality. He now lives in Toronto and plays on the Toronto Gay Hockey Association (TGHA) every Sunday. Playing on a gay team is more comfortable because it’s supportive and less competitive. It’s a relaxed atmosphere where you can “learn and build skills rather than feeling last on the team”. There is also a great social aspect because sexuality isn’t an issue. Finnigean has a friend who prefers to play on a straight hockey league. Craig Head feels there’s a general awareness among the team that he is gay but it’s simply not talked about. Head plays for the Etobicoke Senior Men’s Hockey League, which is just outside Toronto and for men over thirty years of age. The main difference between gay and straight sports teams is the social dynamic. Head doesn’t lie about his sexuality but he is discreet about it.“We’re not friends we’re teammates or acquaintances,” he explains, “so when someone asks about my weekend I don’t give details. I screen the conversation.” Although this may make the change room situation seem hostile, Head says he feels it’s really not such a big deal...

For the full story go to www.outlooks.ca then click on the adobe link and scroll to page 35.

From reading the posts on this thread, there appears to be a belief that, among professional team sports, hockey will produce the first openly gay player. While I would welcome this, I'm not totally convinced that hockey is significantly 'less homophobic' than some of the other sports such as football or baseball (although Don Cherry's 'who cares?' attitude on the gay marriage issue here was a pleasant surprise). Just because countries with progressive records on gay rights, such as Canada and Sweden, are well-represented in the NHL does not necessarily mean that every player from those countries has an enlightened attitude towards playing with gay teammates. It must be remembered that many hockey players come from small towns and rural areas (at least in Canada) where socially-conservative values are the norm. And it should also be kept in mind that many NHL players come from eastern European nations (eg Russia, Slovakia) where the gay rights movement is less advanced than in North America and western Europe.

My gaydar has gone off when listening to and watching Brent on CBC radio/TV, but I didn't know for a fact that he is 'of the tribe', as I haven't heard him discuss gay issues in particular. I've often wondered about Mark Kelly, another CBC personality...

I want to be the first in line to welcome him publicly to the gay team! LOL. But seriously, he has always struck me as gay, though given his Jamaican background, I can only imagine his coming out would be probably the most difficult thing he's ever done, tougher even than fighting the likes of a total nutcase like Mike \"Earbiter\" Tyson.

I used to agree with you, but some--Tiger, Sergio Garcia, etc.--aren't so bad. Golfers also aren't as dumpy as they used to be. It's come a long way, really.

A gay person coming out in hockey might actually help them gain some fans back. LOL

I've always thought Tim Henman is gay, but then that could just be the whole British thing. You know, the \"English vice\" or the \"Italian vice\" depending on whose telling it. Again, seriously, I think it would be pretty uncontroversial in tennis, especially if a European male player came out. There'd be some idiots calling him a \"fag,\" making stupid comments, but as with Amelie Mauresmo, they'd get over it quickly.

Poor Kordell...his career derailed in part because of those rumors and his loss of confidence, I think. I mean, if Kyle Orton, Jeff Garcia (also rumored to be gay) and Brooks Bollinger can start NFL games, Lord knows Kordell could be starting. There are a number of football, baseball and basketball players who are rumored to be gay. Given how insistently commentators--including ESPN Magazine--have been about trying to out Steven Francis and his boyfr...best friend, Cuttino Mobley, I say they should just come out and shut people up. There's a former Duke star, and a former Penn St. player who've set off many people's gaydars, and neither is one of the top players, so would they lose out by coming out? The one football player I wish would come out is Dhani Jones of Philadelphia. That would be a huge thing. If he's gay, that is.

[ December 04, 2005, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Obviously, a lot of discussion on here on what professional sport will have the first openly gay player. I know this discussion is pretty much reserved for the big four... but I'll still point out that professional lacrosse actually HAS the first pro gay athlete.

Who are you talking about? On a search of the Outsports list of out athletes, the only male lacrosse name listed is Andrew Goldstein, who came out in college. Is he now in a pro league?

Yeah--
He was on the Boston Cannons roster last summer... Didn't see any time, though. Got picked up by the Long Island Lizards in the supplemental draft a few weeks ago.

Well, neither the indoor or outdoor pro leagues are anywhere near the big four, but he still deserves kudos -- especially if he gets to play.

Although I'm sure you're refering mainly to American male pro athletes, I just opened a thread "Professional German Soccer Players Planning to Come Out" under the "Gays in Sports" topic. There hasn't been any responses to it so far so I'll go ahead and post the link here...

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/6d81078e-6e5e-11d...00779e2340.html

Maybe if high-level, German, professional, male, team athletes come out it will give others around the world the courage to take the leap.

We might want to discuss the article on the other thread so that we don't mix them.

This article is very thin on details. The reporter also cribbed a lot of his background from Outsports.

The nature of the article would require it to be short on details. The article is simply reporting on a process that is allegedly in the works and what the intended end result will be. To give details would be premature and counterproductive to the stated process. Assuming that you're correct that the reporter "cribbed alot of his background from Outsports" (I'm not exactly sure how you would know that for a fact), but if true, what better place to crib background from when writing about gay sports issues? Outsports is the best forum for news and views concerning gay sports, athletes etc. thanks to you and Cyd et al. How's that for a suck up?

I don't know if the article is true or not, none of us do. I don't see any more reason to doubt it than I do to believe it. As I said in the other forum The Financial Times isn't a gay rag or a sleazy British tabloid. It is a respected periodical similar to The Wall Street Journal. That should lend it a bit of credibility.

Fact is I hope it's true but my world won't come to an end if it isn't.

Sure makes for some good fantasy if nothing else. Having lived in Germany I can say without reservation that those footy Krauts are HOT and they can eat streudel in my bed any time.

[ December 17, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: UM.REBELandTAMPA.BUCfan ]

But it says NOTHING whatsoever. It doesn't even say "According to sources..." or give any other such disclaimer. Not a single clue or hint as to where the story is coming from, where the writer is getting his information, or why this writer is in the know about this and not any others. There's just that one simple paragraph and then a bunch of commentary and old information. I don't care how respected the Financial Times is. That article is extremely shoddy journalism -- it's not much better than the article from the Bulgarian news agency about the "sex scandal."

Having run the site and dealt with reporters all the time I can say that it is clear this reporter went to Outsports to get a lot of info. While flattering, it would have been courtesy to mention us in some way.

I hope the story is true but we've heard this stuff before with nothing panning out.

Agreed.

(shortened screen name a bit as requested)