Yeh - I read it last friday - right after CatcherInNy posted the thread.

It's a real fascinating and extremely well written article, which lead to two conclusions: either Brendan edited the hell out of it or this guy is really bright. Since I choose to believe the latter, hence my suspicion of Mr Philly.

Does anyone know why Mr. Lemon's Major League Baseball jock boyfriend is now Mr. Lemon's Major League Baseball jock is EX - Boyfirend?

And is he looking for a new one? (the baseball palyer...not Mr. Lemon)

Perhaps Mr. Lemon's phantom ex-boyfriend is a nice invention to sell magazines.

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
Perhaps Mr. Lemon's phantom ex-boyfriend is a nice invention to sell magazines.

---

While Mr. Lemmon is the editor, he does have a boss, the publisher. I would hope the publisher of a national publication of this caliber would be ethical enough to have independently verified the identity of the ballplayer in question, and have further verified his authorship of the article. Oddly enough when you're working with anonymous sources, the chain of command has to be more aware and more involved than when using named sources.

I'd agree that actually publishing an article by the anonymous player almost certainly ensures that such a person actually exists. The possible repercussions of fraud in such a scenario seem too great to risk.

Lemon's previous treatment of the issue still strikes me as less responsible journalism and more "tee hee! Guess who my secret boyfriend is!" But I suppose it's better that the gay press benefit from such sensationalism than Mike Piazza's PR machine or our community's political opponents.

From an earlier thread, someone quoted an article from the NY Observer. What strikes me is Lemon's comment "He's not terribly literary, but he understands the story well." I haven't read the players piece yet, but those that have read it seem to indicate that the player is very well-read and educated.

[quote] “What struck me about all the guesses,” Mr. Lemon continued, “is all the assumptions people made. People thought he’d be single, probably white. I never said what his race or marital status is.”

Since the controversy’s heyday, Mr. Lemon has finished a novel, Last Night, now published by the books division of Out parent company LPI, Inc. He said he began his book—the story of an American man’s affair with a Cuban boxer—after leaving his post as cultural editor of The New Yorker in 1997, but continued it after dating Player X.

“I read big parts of the book to him,” Mr. Lemon said. “He’s not terribly literary, but he’s able to understand the story well. He was able to help with baseball details and the psychology of an athlete in the story.”

Now, as Mr. Lemon tries to get people to buy Last Night, Player X begins another season with his secret intact. However, he’s in therapy, Mr. Lemon said, and his coming out will happen … eventually.

“There’s a lot of work to do,” Mr. Lemon said. “There’s a lot of preparation that has to be done within the ball club itself before he can do it. It’s not easy. He has to deal with thousands of fans each night. That’s the difference between him, say, and a Hollywood actor working on a closed set.

“This is all an issue of trust,” Mr. Lemon said. “My boyfriend has enough trust in me to let me discuss this.”

---

[quote]Originally posted by canmark:
From an earlier thread, someone quoted an article from the NY Observer. What strikes me is Lemon's comment "He's not terribly literary, but he understands the story well." I haven't read the players piece yet, but those that have read it seem to indicate that the player is very well-read and educated.

---

Interesting...so would the Lemon comment indicate that the Glanville guess is incorrect? Hmmmmm.

Hmm...I'd forgotten about that. Although being well-educated doesn't necessarily make one literary (unless your major was English), it's curious that the player comes off as so well read. Either he's done a lot of reading in the past year, or the article gives a misleading impression.

Since I finally got to read the article today, I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned: the baseball player had a relationship with a current (his words) "household name in pro football."

What I want to know is: how do these two pro athletes, who are so closeted, get together? How does the process go--maybe they're talking, and both realize the other is being vague when mentioning relationships (such as saying "I'm involved with someone" instead of "I'm involved with a woman")? How does the subject get broached? Who is first to put himself out on the line, risking that perhaps he misread the situation and risking the repercussions it would cause if the other guy actually was straight?

Perhaps gay or bi men who are plugged into the pro athlete circuit serve as middlemen (haha!) to link these studs up.

Lemon probably did burnish the article. His ex probably does exist, and it very well may be Glanville--who looks more and more like he might be whiffing his way out of the Phillies' starting lineup--and out of the closet too.

Is the well known pro football player Troy Aikman? Steve Young? Is it Kordell Stewart? Jerome Bettis(!!!)? Is Lemon going to run an anonymous article from him too?

Is the person going to come out and then pull a David Bowie-Déric Peterson? "I'm not gay...." Give me Amélie Mauresmo, who came out WHILE playing and has courageously dealt with her sexuality. The rest of this nonsense is for the birds....

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
the baseball player had a relationship with a current (his words) "household name in pro football."

---

Now that's about the most interesting little tidbit I've seen from this story (which I haven't read by the way. Where did you find the issue?).


Must make the coming out process a lot more complicated. Outing everyone close to you is an inherent part of coming out, and many closeted gays are probably rightly concernced more about people they care about than about themselves.

It is easy for me to imagine that there is a network of gay athletes and friends of gay who athletes who facilitate "safe" relationships among their group. It would be great if that group could some day be open.

Since it hasn't happened in countries with more gay-friendly government policies, it certainly doesn't seem likely here. But then Stonewall, which is referenced by gay activists around the world, happened here...so who knows?

[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
Now that's about the most interesting little tidbit I've seen from this story (which I haven't read by the way. Where did you find the issue?)

---

I have a subscription which, though it seems to have gone on forever on its own because I can't remember the last time I sent them any money, is finally expiring early next year.

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
What I want to know is: how do these two pro athletes, who are so closeted, get together? How does the process go--maybe they're talking, and both realize the other is being vague when mentioning relationships (such as saying "I'm involved with someone" instead of "I'm involved with a woman")? How does the subject get broached? Who is first to put himself out on the line, risking that perhaps he misread the situation and risking the repercussions it would cause if the other guy actually was straight?

---

From my personal knowledge/experience:

Professional athletes, by necessity and familiarity, tend to associate/socialize in the same circles, and the ones who are same-sex oriented, like with regular, everyday non-jock people, tend to develop a "gaydar" that helps them navigate toward each other. Also, word gets around with the pro sports and collegiate sports community who might be "gay", "down", "bi", or whatever, as quiet as its kept. And finally, yes, there are a few networks of famous/semi-famous folks who are gay who socialize together and will introduce people at private gatherings. And hell... some of them even venture out into the Real World to meet guys. It's just like guys meeting in the military, it's a unique culture.

I'd be willing to wager that if this guy were to come out, it wouldn't shock the upper-management of his team or most of his teammates, although they might not encourage it or be happy with it. I'm sure the thought already crossed their minds more than once. You can't be that close to someone without having some kind of idea about their sexuality.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
Since I finally got to read the article today, I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned: the baseball player had a relationship with a current (his words) "household name in pro football."

---

Has anybody read "Changing Pitches" by Steve Kluger?

A major character in the book is a major league baseball player (a catcher in the book) who turns a out to be gay and who's boyfriend is a professional football player.

Sound familar?

I'm teasing because I tend to agree with Yelldawg about pro-jocks hanging in small circles of similar peers. Take me for an example, working in higher educaiton, I know a good deal of people who work in higher education ...

Is that excting or what...
So, take that Mr. Lemon...

Unless you've known a guy who's made the Major Leagues from eariler days, I doubt you'll be seeing one at the Piggly Wiggly.

I also agree with ya, Yelldawg... just like the rest us... a pro-jock is going to develop his "gaydar" and just as we do in our own professions, he too, will eventually meet or find out about other pro-jocks who are gay. If he's lucky, his buddies may try to help him out meeting quality men.

I also agree that the ballplayer's teammate may very well have their "suspicions" or already know about the player or players on their team who are gay. Lockerroom talk is right up there with the galchats.

Finally, I also agree that while the said player's sexual orientation maybe be the proverbial "open secret" on the team, the team and team management may not be too enthusiatic about the "secret" being made public and thus, very very real.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

I'm picky this way, but I have to point out a misquote from the article. Here is the context in which the anonymous baseball player was talking about the football player:

"I'm not sure, even if I removed [homophobic players'] blinders by pointing out the household name in pro football, for example, whom I, through a personal relationship, know is gay, that the homophobic players would change their minds."

So he doesn't state that they had a "relationship", only that they have a mutual acquaintance. So maybe there are liasions for the stars and pro athletes?

[quote]Originally posted by satxbuddy1:
If he's lucky, his buddies may try to help him out meeting quality men.

---

"If he's lucky" is right! Even in the world of athletics, there exists Cock Blockers (the lowliest of the lowest form of all Queen Scum). Only a true friend would hook up one good man with another.

[quote]Originally posted by satxbuddy1:

Has anybody read "Changing Pitches" by Steve Kluger?

---

I read it! It was cute. I think Kluger is straight, and it seemed to reflect a time - before Reagan's Mourning in America outlawed the last vestiges of the counterculture - where ideas of sexual exploration and stuff were explored much more freely and honestly.

You know, I had an Internet buddy once who was a college football player, and he dated a college baseball player. He told me about his ability to "find" others like him, even on a very closeted campus. It just happened.

But it strikes me that once this network forms, especially if a guy is finding emotional support and cameraderie there, it could actually be one of the things keeping a player in the closet, at least publicly. After all, not only does he not need to come out to meet other gay men, if he did come out, it could potentially jeopardize his relationships with those closeted men.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: bridgeportjake ]

[quote]Originally posted by bridgeportjake:
it seemed to reflect a time - before Reagan's Mourning in America outlawed the last vestiges of the counterculture - where ideas of sexual exploration and stuff were explored much more freely and honestly.

---

Oh GOD, you give Reagan way too much credit - your sentence should read "before AIDS"

I was about to post the same response, cop.
I know Reagan can be criticised for not supporting AIDS research early in the epidemic, but to blame him for killing "sexual exploration and stuff" is just wrong. And the last I looked, counterculture was not outlawed.

Sorry, off topic. Now back to the regularly scheduled thread...

[quote]Originally posted by MSUBulldog:
I'm picky this way, but I have to point out a misquote from the article. Here is the context in which the anonymous baseball player was talking about the football player:

"I'm not sure, even if I removed [homophobic players'] blinders by pointing out the household name in pro football, for example, whom I, through a personal relationship, know is gay, that the homophobic players would change their minds."

So he doesn't state that they had a "relationship", only that they have a mutual acquaintance. So maybe there are liasions for the stars and pro athletes?

---

Check out Brendan Lemon's column in the same magazine. It's more specific about the two players' relationship.

[quote]Originally posted by bridgeportjake:


You know, I had an Internet buddy once who was a college football player, and he dated a college baseball player. He told me about his ability to "find" others like him, even on a very closeted campus. It just happened.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: bridgeportjake ]

---

I heard this from some guys too, but I always figured that was the guy who everyone thought was gay anyway, he just didn't realize it. It's the big secret everybody knows, that's why the other closeted guys found him so easy to come on to. Someone posted an Onion article on here the other day that was something to the effect "Local Gay Man Comes Out to Friends who All Assumed He Was Gay."

Ok, with all this said ...

When are we, said baseball jock and said football jock (once removed) are going to get together for a couple of beers

It'll be small and private...
Nothing too flashy

Jockstraps optional...

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:


Check out Brendan Lemon's column in the same magazine. It's more specific about the two players' relationship.

---

Now that I'm home from work, here's the exact Lemon quote from the column:

[quote] If he does an autobiography someday, the media will love the off-the-field stories -- his former affair with a current household-name pro football player should by itself be a feast for talk radio.

---

My apologies. Thanks for pointing that out!

As an avid home town sports fan, I especially enjoy the Phillies, if the rumors about D.G. are true, I feel he will come out when he feels it's appropiate, unfortunately, he probably won't be wearing a Phillies uniform when/if that happens.

Welcome aboard Philly2.

Would you like to say how you personally would feel about a phillies player coming out?

All right, another Philly guy!

You are correct, it's likely that he'll be somewhere else. He still wants to be a starter but the Phils will surely go with Marlon Byrd, and presumably keep Ricky Ledee as a backup.

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
All right, another Philly guy!

You are correct, it's likely that he'll be somewhere else. He still wants to be a starter but the Phils will surely go with Marlon Byrd, and presumably keep Ricky Ledee as a backup.

---

Did someone say Ricky Ledee? That papi has some beautiful lips. Maybe Glanville is seeing him now?

[quote]What makes you think he might not already be in this group? He could very well be reading and/or participating in this discussion.

---

I'm sure every gay player in pro sports checks out this site.

[quote]Originally posted by PCC:


I'm sure every gay player in pro sports checks out this site.

---

WHAT!!!!!

Come to papa...

But you know... you're probably not far off PCC. Why wouldn't a pro jock who's gay not check Outsport's out. It's avenues like Outpsorts that show us all that gay guys are just guys... gay, you betcha.....but sports is part of our being a guy for alot of us.

So, I hope any jock who's gay can find the same connection and enjoyment we all do here at Outsports.

Oh, if any of you pro jocks out there know Javy...(need I give the last name...)tell him I have his flautas de pollo con queso y es muy calinete ready for him to (ah hem) eat.....

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

Not so fast, buddy!! I wanna make him dinner, too!!

i gotta get back to work, but i like the conversation on interrace dates, eating crow, and eligible baseball bachelors. i believed lemon cause he is pretty hot and fills out jeans nicely.

just wanted to drop a line to fantomas to say
that dhani jones lived down the hall from me
his freshmore year at the university of michigan.

he was an individual even then, growing out his afro regardless of what people said, insisting on speaking out during team meetings despite threats from upperclassmen, and performing as a thespian.

we lived in the "freaks and geeks" dorm, home of many campus musicians, poets, painters, and queers, but when dhani would walk around with his shirt off and tight jogging shorts (even then he was a complete hottie)reciting aristotle, it was
usually to twitterpate the throng of females who were turned on by both his body and his mind. i
myself was just a quiet observer and occasional
conversationalist with the young man. =) it is good to see him succeeding even though i hate the giants.

p.s. - i'm kind of surprised that the outsports
edit police (i don't recall their names but they gave me grief about baldwin) didn't criticize the player for adding a "the" to ellison's tome. ralphy wanted people to know that every black man was invisible, hence "invisible man."

peace

Hey Jay, thanks for the info on Dhani. I like him a lot, though I too loathe the Giants.

My friend met Dhani at an outdoor Summerstage concert in NYC about 3-4 years ago; he had driven from Ann Arbor with a "girlfriend" to hear a House singer and a hiphop group. He and my friend chatted, exchanged numbers. I think they talked about photography and poetry. My friend didn't think Dhani was really a college football player, but I assured him that he was the real thing. My friend also is shy and somewhat retiring, so he didn't contact Dhani, though I urged him too.

I don't know about his sexuality, but he is fascinating. Not your typical jock. There are more than a few out there. I'm sure some of them are on our team.

No offense to anyone here (honestly), but this thread is the epitome of rumor and innuendo run amok.

Did I miss whatever kernel of "evidence" exists about DG being the Lemon-twist?
Or is this whole thread really just pure speculation? And if it is, it seems to have developed a life of its own.

Just an observation.

If you read the latest OUT, you'll find that the big secret is a big part of this month's marketing plan...Apparently being in the closet is now actually braver than being out...

As is often the case with good conversation, the diversions of this thread have proven more interesting than the initial premise.

Well, I was finally able to read the article in question. What a let-down. I don't think it really tells us much about anything. We don't learn anything about his relationship with Brendan Lemon, or how difficult/easy it is for a closeted famous person to meet other gay people. It might be interesting to know when he realized he was gay, or who/what has helped him cope (has he been inspired by Billy Bean? By Martina Navratalova? or were there no role models?) Or what it's liked to play in the majors period. Who cares if he's gay--what's it like to face Randy Johnson or strike out Barry Bonds (I suppose he could be a pitcher, too).

But what I did find interesting is how he says he's "a professional baseball player who is drawn emotionally and sexually to men..." In other threads some members of Outsports have suggested that African-American men often reject the term "gay" in favor of 'same gender loving' (or something like that). And given Derrick Peterson's waffling on his sexual identity, it's interesting that Anonymous never actually says he's gay. (He mentions a "personal relationship" with a household-name football player; Lemon calls this a "former affair.")

I wonder, too, if there are other gay players and what they think of Anonymous's piece.

If he actually talked about specifics on the field, that could get more interesting...but this whole anonymous stuff, in 2002, is bullshit in my opinion. Especially in a mainstream gay magazine...isn't it called OUT after all? How any self-respecting gay man over 30 could date a closeted guy is beyond me as well...I guess it makes for a good "fantasy" story...

I've me a couple of straight guys that I would let bunk down in my bedroom closet if only they would ask.

[quote]Originally posted by AU Tiger in LA:
No offense to anyone here (honestly), but this thread is the epitome of rumor and innuendo run amok.

Did I miss whatever kernel of "evidence" exists about DG being the Lemon-twist?
Or is this whole thread really just pure speculation? And if it is, it seems to have developed a life of its own.

Just an observation.

---

That's what all threads about gay players are, until someone actually comes out. There is no specific evidence pointing to the identity of "Lemon's pledge."

The thing that has me totally confused is when Brendan Lemon's novel was published earlier this year, he commented that he asked his ballplayer boyfried for some advice regarding some of the plot details, but also suggested that the boyfriend wasn't very intelligent, or his English wasn't very good (the comment suggested that Lemon had to explain a lot about his story/novel to the boyfriend). Here we have a very well written article in OUT magazine, by someone who clearly is very intelligent, which is the opposite of what Lemon suggested earlier this year. What gives?

scottie:
I think Lemon's comment was that the guy wasn't very "literary." You can be smart and have little or no interest in fiction and literature. For example, an engineer. Or someone who has an engineering degree from, oh say an Ivy League school like Penn.

AU Tiger in LA:
I can't speak for others, but as to why I'm convinced it's legit and it's Glanville: it's not speculation, but a very educated guess.
Assuming the story's legit -- and I now do -- we only know the following: (1) East Coast and (2) not the team's star but a recognizable figure. Two other characteristics seem readily apparent but do not rise to the level of "fact": (1) intellectual and (2) African-American. That final characteristic is based mainly on the Ralph Ellison reference (not an author typically referenced by us white folk) and Lemon's comment about people assuming the boyfriend was white.
There are 750 major league ballplayers (a few more if you count players on the DL and still more after September call-ups) That's a restricted universe. Within that group, there are very few among those I'd call intellectual. (Not all players who strike me as being "smart" or even "intelligent," do I consider to be "intellectual," Al Leiter for example.) Among the players who are recognizable, but not their team's biggest stars, I'd count maybe four or five that I would consider to be "intellectuals," based on what I know. Intellectuals may love to watch baseball, but they don't seem to be playing it. And that small number is not yet accounting for race.
So, among that tiny tiny subset within the universe of 750 players, how many are African-Americans playing for East Coast teams? Uno. Sci-fi nerd Doug Glanville. With his engineering degree from the University of Pennsylvania.

Speculation? Yes. But definitely better grounded in reality than speculation like "Steve Young must be gay because he was a single Mormon for all those years playing in America's gay mecca San Francisco." That's idle speculation. This is an educated guess.

[quote]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
scottie:
I think Lemon's comment was that the guy wasn't very "literary." You can be smart and have little or no interest in fiction and literature. For example, an engineer.

---

That's an unfortunate stereotype. My father and brother are electrical engineers. Both are avid readers and literature fans. My father (rather than my educater, poet mother) introduced me to Shakespeare when I was in the third grade. He encouraged me to read the gravedigger's scene when I asked about puns. I find that intelligent people need a creative outlet. True that is not always literature. I know any number of very intellegent who know nothing about fiction, but have a great deal of interest in the fine arts.

[quote]Originally posted by jqueer:
That's an unfortunate stereotype. My father and brother are electrical engineers. Both are avid readers and literature fans.

---

I graduated from Georgia Tech. I know the stereotype about engineers to be generally, but not universally, true. An engineer who reads fiction is more likely to gravitate towards sci-fi than to Dostoevsky or Joyce or even Thomas Pynchon. I've known exceptions and, generally, they are the most interesting people I've known. And I personally did not develop my love for Herman Melville until a few years after I graduated.

So, I think it's a plausible that a science fiction devouring engineering graduate could be described as not being "literary."

[quote]Originally posted by canmark:
Well, I was finally able to read the article in question. What a let-down. I don't think it really tells us much about anything. We don't learn anything about his relationship with Brendan Lemon, or how difficult/easy it is for a closeted famous person to meet other gay people. It might be interesting to know when he realized he was gay, or who/what has helped him cope (has he been inspired by Billy Bean? By Martina Navratalova? or were there no role models?) Or what it's liked to play in the majors period. Who cares if he's gay--what's it like to face Randy Johnson or strike out Barry Bonds (I suppose he could be a pitcher, too).

But what I did find interesting is how he says he's "a professional baseball player who is drawn emotionally and sexually to men..." In other threads some members of Outsports have suggested that African-American men often reject the term "gay" in favor of 'same gender loving' (or something like that). And given Derrick Peterson's waffling on his sexual identity, it's interesting that Anonymous never actually says he's gay. (He mentions a "personal relationship" with a household-name football player; Lemon calls this a "former affair.")

I wonder, too, if there are other gay players and what they think of Anonymous's piece.

---

I read it too and am not sure how I feel about it...just yet. Canmark, he doesn't describe himself as gay or homosexual, he does appear to have quite a grasp of written English (which even many educated Americans struggle with), and he gives us little about his day-to-day existence or his identification with any of the major gay sports figures. In fact, it struck me as a well-prepared marketing tool for OUT, with Lemon's fingerprints all over it. He knows that sports fans will be speculating, will buy the magazine to read the article and guess who this guy is, and will be impressed by the style, thin as the content is.

All in all, I just wish this person would come out and be done with it.

I'm with fantomas and all of the other doubters. Not only does Lemon get to sell issues of Out, buts he's all written an article for GQ and done and number of talking gigs on this issue. I'd like to be a bit more trusting, but the whole thing stinks if you ask me...

I'm with you, B-Man. And I've smelled a rat since day one on this and got flak once or twice for suggesting so...if the publishers of OUT are in on this scam (if it definitely is), well, they will need to account for a stunning lack of integrity...

B-Man - where've you been? Missed ya.. We need your calm cool thinking around here....

Do you realize what would happen if it DID turn out to be a hoax? At the very least, Lemon loses his job. The company itself (they also own the Advocate) would suffer a serious hit on its credibility and might end up shutting down Out as a result if it loses advertising revenue and sales. Do you really think the people involved with Out would risk their own livelihoods and the livelihoods of everyone employed by the magazine, in order to sell a few additional copies? Things aren't exactly booming in the magazine business, anyway. Face it, it's not going to sell a lot more copies even if a MAJOR celebrity is coming out. It's not going to be suddenly available on the racks at supermarkets and so on, where the vast majority of the public is. It'll still be at the same newsstands and bookstores. It's not a mainstream publication.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

I've thought of that, too, although the risk of exposure seems limited here. How could one ever prove it was a hoax? I've been inclined to believe him, but maybe that's just my liberal tendency to want to think well of other people. You know we liberals live in a fantasy world...it's just not the fantasy world where teenagers won't have sex if they're not taught how to do it in school.

I find it difficult to imagine why the entire thing would be a hoax. It may very well be oversold.

I agree with you Joe that it doesn't seem likely to bring a windfall of money to Out, but there is the little matter of "ego-boosting" and exposure (which might translate into someething more tangible later) in the entertainment industry, and this whole issue seems to be more about entertainment or titilation than journalism or activism at this point.