Members of a rugby team made up at least partially of New York City firefighters, including one featured on the cover of Sports Illustrated, refused to play a game against the Gotham Knights gay rugby team after one of the firefighters asked the gay team if they could guarantee that none of their players were HIV-positive.

Story

Can the firefighters guarantee that they are all HIV-negative?
Do they require this guarantee of all the teams that they play?

Firefighters or no, those people are scum. Plain and simple.

[ June 21, 2006, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: FireCharlieManuelNow ]

It's an ignorant reaction. But we can only hope that the attention the FDNY team is getting will (A) emphasize the ignorance of those refusing to play and ( shed some light for people who clearly do not understand the scientific facts of how HIV is transmitted. Education sometimes has to come the hard way. Hopefully, this guy is embarrassed and will think twice before he discriminates in the future.

If anything, the members of Gotham would be more likely to know their status, and would take more precautions.

It's the OTHER teams who should be more worried. If they have no clue if they are positive or not, then they wouldn't take the same precautions.

And note that Gotham didn't confirm that anyone was positive, just didn't answer that all were negative.

Not to mention that anyone bleeding is sent off the field by the ref.

Either way, the FDNY looks bad, and I can only assume this story isn't ending here.

You know....when all is said and done, they probably just didn't want to lose to a "gay" team. Maybe they are just a little too homophobic and their "manhood" couldn't handle being beaten by a bunch of fags.

I have a friend who I believe is on the gay rugby team. I'm going to contact him to see if he was there when this occurred. Anyway, this is not surprising coming from NYFD. After 9/11, we knew the real deal with them. Ignorant, drug addicted, drunken, widow f*cking thieves. Some of them may look hot, but most are meatheads. I know enough firefighters to say this with some personal knowledge. Not all of course, but enough to allow me to reach that conclusion. And who knows what diseases they have??!! I think the Gotham guys had more to be concerned about than the "laborers" they were supposed to play against. Herpes,anyone?? I wonder if Fireflag is aware of this situation? They're a "gay Firefighters" group. I wonder if they'd even be willing to involve themselves?

Stay strong,Gotham! It really seems as if it's open season on gays these days. How much more do we have to take? :mad:

This is why sometimes I'm embarassed to admit that I'm a firefighter.....homophobia is very rampant in the firehouse....sigh....this is the 21st century...when are they ever gonna "grow up" and stop acting like cavemen?? I'm not out at work (it's really none of their business) and my regular crew knows I don't tolerate any discrimination no matter who it's directed to...but sometimes I feel like the little kid trying to plug the holes in the dike frown

This story has made the Advocate.com

Great post Azxfireguy.

I agree this is more about not wanting to lose to a gay team than HIV status. Some guys just can't deal with that for some reason.

I wonder if they will require verification of everyone's HIV status before racing into a burning building in Chelsea?

Are they brave enough to play the Lesbian Rugby Club? The poor dears, maybe someone will not scare them to death.

The most sad thing is that the NYFD have not come out and said that we do not support this kind of behavier by any member of the NYFD.

Having just come back from New York, were I played rugby, it doses not suprise me as the grounds offered to the Gothams for the competion were very bad. New York City is no pro gay rugby, insted it wont your money but not your faces.
Sad to see that we come so far while still having to go back to pick up the rubbish of a past time that should be over.

I wonder if the FDNY asked for verification of HIV status while saving victims of the Trade Center blast. Come to think of it, given this precedent, couldn't they ask for HIV status of any victim they're supposed to "save"???

The answer is, of course not, so why can thay ask this for an innocent soccer game? Do they feel more threatened than the life-saving incidents they perform regularly?

Is this idiotic or what? :confused:

:mad: I emailed this team of fire fighters this morning. I reminded them as a healthcare worker myself that we know that there's no way of knowing who has aids..gay or straight. They are playing rugby against hundreds of different strangers and if they followed their own practice of ignorance shown against the Knights then how could they play against any team for that matter. They have no way of knowing who has aids and who doesn't. They forget the Knights was inspired by Mark Bingham who helped form the Fog and was one of the heroes on United flight 93. On September 11, 2001, it made no difference who was gay and who wasn't. He died a hero right along with fire fighters, police officers, rescue workers and civilians that day. This team showed bigotry and it's a serious shame they forgot what the sport of rugby and being a fire fighter is all about. I think that losing to a team made of diverse men was probably the real reason behind this.

Rick-

What an ignorant, knuckle-dragging comment. So no one from NYC (politicians) has come out to decry this stupid remark? I feel like burning my damned FDNY calendar. Well, all of it except for Mr. January. I'm still hung up on Evan Ortiz.

What makes it sadder for me personally is that my bar hosts a monthly party for a group called FireFlag. It is a group of gay and lesbian firefighters and EMS workers. A nicer group of people you'd be hard-pressed to find. To know what these good people have to put up with is so discouraging.

In this day and age for adults living in NYC to think that only gay men could be HIV+ is just beyond belief.

[ June 23, 2006, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: George Twins fan ]

JacMacEnt@aol.com

Above is the email of the guy who apparently did the asking of the team's HIV status, Phil Tufano. I found it on their website http://www.rockawayrugby.com/contact.php

Instead of flaming him as some are apt to do, perhaps a spirited attempt to educate him further and give him the opportunity to lose his obvious and revolting ignorance.

It's a truly disgusting incident. Perhaps it can be turned around, into something educational and meaningful. I'm sure not everyone on that other team felt comfortable with that behavior..or at least let's hope.

So much for heroes - those firefighters are more like school yard *ssholes right now.

I blogged about this last week ( http://liamboston.blogspot.com/ -- you;ll need to scroll down to th 6/19 posting) , but total props to Cyd and the Outsports folks for getting the details. All I had at the time was a rumor, a second hand story of the events that were alleged to occur, but Outsports' reporting confirmed for me that my source was actually pretty accurate!!

I find it kind of ironic that members of the NYFD woud find gay men on a rugby field more a threat than racing into a burning building.

[ June 23, 2006, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: aquaman ]

Hey Aquaman:
We heard about it late Sunday but it took a couple of days to nail everything down -- Chris and Cyd did a great job. Amazing to me that the Knights won't talk about it.

“This team showed bigotry and it's a serious shame they forgot what the sport of rugby and being a fire fighter is all about.”

Are you serious?

Playing rugby and fighting fires?
C’mon!

Firefighters and cops are people that go into the most dangerous, volatile, and grisly situations one could imagine. They are kept safe and alive by their training, and part of that is to protect themselves. Even when they respond to a wealthy suburban home with a husband, wife, and 2 ½ kids they protect themselves against any possibility of fluid transmission. That is what they are trained to do.

If they’re a little over-protective before a rugby game, I’ll cut ‘em some slack. Because if anyone of us was hurt or in danger and had a sign on us that said “I’m gay and HIV+” , they would protect themselves as they were trained to do and do everything they could to help or save us.

Their training keeps them safe enough to help all people. Each of us included. Show me a story where a firefighter or cop refused to help a gay guy—then I’ll have a problem with that.

Then why didn't they back out of the game they played before they forfeited to the Knights? Why are they playing rugby at all?

The problem isn't that they were being over-protective. The problem is WHEN they decided to become over-protective.

Unfortunately, the Gotham Knights refuse to say a word. Their president has told the players to never talk about this incident. Very sad. I'll likely be writing a column about it and how this incident was 1) sandwiched between the Bingham Cup and Pride and 2) on the same day I was watching an openly gay pro lax player just a few miles away from Rockaway.

When....and HOW.

Hopefully one or more of the Knights will have the BALLS to be forthcoming and honest about what appears to have been a very ugly incident. Cover for them, and you're complicit in their bigotry.

When I saw that the team pres told the players to not discuss it, I was inclined to believe that he did so because he wanted to protect the future of his team. Any yahoo out there who was only mildly concerned about this before probably now thinks that the NYFD's precedent gives him license to do the same. Hey, if the brave NYFD won't play these guys, I sure as heck ain't.

Could it be that they are suing to garner a larger spotlight on the incident and any discussion might hurt their case?

I thought HX magazine is running a story about it.

I've heard rumors that it will be in the next issue.

Sad, but not surprising. I know two players who have quit playing rugby with the Knights over the past couple of years because they were uncomfortable with the teams' unofficial code of masculinity. Players who were somehow deemed not tough enough, butch enough, man enough, were made to feel unwelcome, and the team is very concerned about always coming across as completely mainstream and uncontroversial.

A group of gay cheerleaders offered to start going to Knights games and cheer, but were told to not come as "it was not the kind of image of gay men team is comfortable with." I get the impression that "passing" is the most important objective to these guys, so I'm not surprised they'd be so complicit in this awful behavior.

They could still run a story even if they don't get quotes from the Gotham Knights.

But if what people like MM are saying about the Gotham Knights is true, they don't sound much like a team I'd want to support. Still, the firefighters' behavior is reprehensible and must be challenged.

People are not "run off" teams for not being butch enough. Some of the biggest queens I know are also some of the best rugby players I've seen. Maybe there's a connection between them not being afraid to be who they are and not being afraid of going all out in the game. Maybe thats the kind of positive aspect of gay rugby that should be focused on.

People who don't work out with rugby are typically those who don't have the time to practice or who aren't comfortable with the violent aspects of the game. The supposedly butchest guys in town are often among the latter category.

[ June 24, 2006, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: SEC Rugger ]

Well, I cannot seem to find a link to the story, which was a couple of years ago, but there was a drag queen in DC who was in full drag when some medical emergency happened. The EMTs who responded apparently stopped rescue efforts when they realized the woman they were working on was really a man.

As someone who played with the Knights (I was injured and pretty much ended my career), I can tell you that the assessment that they are supposed to manly at all costs is 100% untrue. Come on. One of their guys did a whole dance routine with back up dancers to Proud Mary.

So they're not talking? Why make assumptions that they are suing or trying to make a big deal out of it? Maybe they're trying to get their ducks lined up in a row before they say anything? Maybe they are working things out with their union and trying not to make it out to be a big deal? Does it even have to be a big deal?

SEC Rugger is right. There were some pretty butch muscle head guys out there when I went to their boot camp. I ran into one of them a couple of weeks after bootcamp and asked why I hadn't seen him at practice. He said that he didn't think the sport was for him and was too rough. This guy was, at the very least, 220-230 pounds of solid muscle. Me -- I'm 150 pounds getting the crap beating out ouf me and I loved it. There's no unwritten code of masculinity on the team. If they felt uncomfortable it wasn't because of that. I'm not the most masculine of people and I have made several great friends on the team. No one has ever told me that I'm not welcome because I'm not a musclehead or butch enough for their liking. No one has ever given me that impression as well. Sure there will be those that are that way and don't hang out with the less masculine players, but they are more the exception than the rule.

You want to know why the gay cheerleaders weren't asked to come out? Because they just didn't want them there. There's no rule that says that they have to have them at matches. I'm surprised that they didn't tell you that the gay cheerleaders performed at their bachelor auction one year when I was first introduced to the team. How quickly they forget.

Can someone explain how the Knights became the bad guys in this situation solely for the reason that they won't talk about it and are choosing to deal with it in their own way -- out of the spotlight?

Because when something ugly like this happens, I feel personally denigrated and insulted, and I want to see the slimy perpetrator publicly humiliated. I want see us stand up for ourselves.

My impression at this point is that the Knights slunk away in shame. Perhaps that's an unfair assumption, but I've seen nothing to counter it.

My hope is that they're maintaining media silence while a public reprimand of said perpetrator is in the works.

[ June 24, 2006, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: fenwayguy ]

I asked some of the guys on the team what was going on and they said that the club is working with the head of union on a course of action and the union is on Gotham's side.

They are choosing not to comment at this time so it doesn't impede or interfere with the work that is currently going on. They would rather release a statement after the fact when a resolution has been reached rather than try it in the media which I think is a noble course of action. It might not be the course that some on here would like them to choose but that's where it stands.

As a former player and officer of the Washington Renegades rugby team in DC I can understand why the Knights are refusing to talk to the media.

Like it or not, rugby can still be a homophobic sport. Each of the gay teams that have sprouted up around the US in recent years has had to petition their regional rugby unions (in this case the Metropolitan New York Rugby Football Union) in order to be considered a legitimate rugby club and in order to be eligible to play in matches and tournaments. In doing so these teams have to overcome all kinds of stereotypes and prejudices before and after being admitted.

On top of that, there is a very close camaraderie among rugby players somewhat akin to a fraternity. A threat to one rugby player is a threat to all, and sportsmanship is very important. It is customary for a hosting team to host a party for a visiting team regardless of what took place on the field, a time to forget the passion of a game and encourage camaraderie.

These two facts strongly encourage a team like the Gotham Knights to get along with their rugby brethren, and encourage them to settle differences as amicably and quietly as possible. If they don't, they will find themselves shunned or worse in the union and will destroy the good will of other players and teams.

I think the Knights are being very shrewd. In shutting up for the media they are indicating that they do not want to embarrass the FDNY players because of the actions of a few people or one person, and want to handle the matter internally. They're also fully aware that others have gone to the media already, and by letting the others do the dirty work they know it keeps pressure on the FDNY players at the same time that it minimizes strains in relations between the Knights and other teams in the Union.

It's not a matter of giving the FDNY a "pass", or a failure to stand up for themselves. Their silence is a political calculation based on the realities of the sport and of being a gay team.

That said, the behavior of the FDNY was deplorable. This issue has been extensively discussed in my blog, Joe At Large.

Thanks for the insight, guys.

On the flip side of things The Austin Lonestars, the team I played for last year, have several firemen on the team during the regular season. At least 4 - 5 that I know of, all hetero, good guys.

Joeatlarge - thanks for that perspective. It's quite interesting; I'm not sure I agree with it but I can understand the rationale. I hope you're right and that there will be some kind of official action. My hopes are not high, but hopefully I'm wrong.

I don't know that much more about this besides what I've read here, but I do hope that some kind of clarity is eventually achieved. I'm just sure that this is an isolated incident caused by a few nimwits (or perhaps I'm being overly optimistic)...who do not represent all NY Fire Fighters who as we all know stepped up to the plate big time on that terrible day almost five years ago and are generally characterized as heroes.
The gay team was dealt a vicious insult and they deserve a real apology and clarity on what the hell these so-called adults were doing. Honestly, you'd think the NYFD team was made up by a bunch of high school bullies too stupid and too ignorant to deal with other human beings. I hope they step up and act like responsible adults.

Just read the letter from the president of the Metropolitan New York Rugby Union. It's refreshing to see that they have officially, and in writing, addressed the issue.

Maybe, the team could use a little sensitivity training? Sounds like this team is unnecessarily scared of the transmission of the HIV virus by casual contact. A little time of informed contact with a doctor who treats AIDS patients, for example, could chase away their fears? Anyway, it bears constant repitition for the upcoming generation, who have to be uninformed about this topic. You CANNOT get AIDS through CASUAL contact. (And, you really don't have to wear condoms in the Rugby game. Ha, ha.)

After reading the letter, it doesn't sound like a team issue at all. It sounds to me that they just need to be a bit choosier about their last minute recruits.

[ July 08, 2006, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Maddog ]

Ah yes, the problems caused by "social sides." When I played for our law school team, we had a few "socials" who'd show up when it suited them, generally cause problems, never pay dues, eat up all the oranges during halftime, leave early, and then reappear at bars and parties - usually more drunk than those of us who'd actually played in the match. Rugby, like many other group activities, has its groupies, and they can be trouble at times, especially when they're also, as appears to be the case here, wannabes.

That said, I thought the letter was great. Even in tone, clear in message and no BS. The only fault I could find in it was the writer's failure to use "who" instead of "that." Cyd, you majored in English, didn't you??? wink

Hey congatulations on following up on the story. And kudos for featuring two of the Str8 players from Gotham in the picture along side the story.

Maybe a better name for the NYC team would be
PussyPoss-E
Oh look, we can run into buring building
and carry people down 15 flights of stairs.
Ooooo, were so brave and strong and every
stupid f**** thinks were heros!
But we can't play against queers.
PUSSYS
Sissys
These are pigs and homophobes and should be
considered nothing more!
The gay teams win by default.
At least they don't hide behind a uniform of lies

It was Tyra Hunter