Another reason to share the gold is the false precision of the gymnastics scoring. Hamm won be a few thousandth's of a point - but because the scoring is done based on a lot of human judgement - including the difficulty of the program and how much to deduct for various mistake - the judging simply is not that precise.

When a swimmer out-touches a competitor by a few hundreth's or thousandth's of a second, it is clear to everyone, and as long as everyone is racing against the same clock, it is a meaningful distinction. When human judges are used, it seems like such a small differential basically says both men were equally good, on average.

Paul Hamm's mother has made a heartfelt statement about the Korean controversy.

Conspiracy theorists might take note that: (a) all three of those judges have been suspended, ( the head judge is American © one of the two other judges--the Colombian judge--has American connections... he lives in Ohio, works as a coach, and is a member of USA gymnastics, and (d) Paul Hamm apparently lives and trains in Ohio.

Koreans may also be reminded of how their speed skater was disqualified, allowing American Apollo Anton Ohno to win gold in the Salt Lake City Olympics.

[ August 22, 2004, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

From what was reported on NBC News today the issue is that the Koreans did not protest the scoring until the next day. They should have protested before the next event that night and before the results became final. From FIG "The FIG Rules do not allow for a protest against judges’ marks. The judges’ marks have to be accepted as a final decision and cannot be changed."

The question on the table now is whether to award a double gold. Apparently it will take the approval of US Gymnastics, the USOC, FIG and the IOC for a double gold. I'm sure there is a ton of lobbying going on in Olympic House this week.

oh my...the Icelandic gymnast gave the pommel horse a real workout.

Runar Alexandersson

That's it. I'm moving to Reykjavik!

Well, both Paul and Morgan Hamm didn't totally excel in the floor exercises today. We'll see what happens from here!

I wonder if Paul Hamm was affected by the Korean controversy, as he finished out of the money in the floor exercises and pommel horse. Today he's in parallel bars and horizontal bar.

International Gymnast article on the Korean side of the story... when they made their protests and to whom.

[ August 23, 2004, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Actually, I thought Paul did very well last night. It's worth noting that none of the all around medalists medalled in any of the event finals thus far on the men's side.

This is the nature of the all around it seems. You must be good enough to post 9.6-9.7 on all the events. The event finals winners are posting 9.8 and above. They however, don't excel on other events and thus are not dangers int he all around.

I have read today that Paul has finally commented on the scandal. he's actually upset that they are reviewing video at all. His coach said the 2 tenths of deductions were missed in the S Koreans routine, so if they are going to review the tape, they should consider all deductions.

I just read in msnbc that the Bulgarians are now contesting the rings result in men's gymnastics Sunday night. They believe their gymnast, Jordan Jotchev(I think it's spelled that way), was cheated out of the gold by a scoring error. I knew stuff like this would come up. The gymnastic committee should have nipped the South Korean controversy in the bud earlier. I'm sorry but in my opinion this year's Olympic gymnastic competition has stopped being fun.

I would probably jump on the bandwagon with the Bulgarians.Their gymnast did just as many strength moves as the Greek gymnast and held them. He also stuck his landing which the Greek gymnast failed to do.

However, if they didn't protest within the allotted time, they shouldn't get the consideration.

I hadn't heard of that protest, but I do think that Jordan Jovtchev is very handsome. And he was terrific in floors (bronze) and rings (silver). I didn't see the Greek guy, so I can't say, but I think there's a difference between a "scoring error" and a score that one disagrees with.

Paul Hamm - maybe I'm the person with the contrary idea, and I know it's egalitarian to want them to share the gold, which I'd actually be OK with, BUT, I really do think the Koreans should have been on top of the situation and should have filed a protest THAT NIGHT.

Jordan Jovtchev - IS smoking hot, and his routine was sublime. The Greek guy's exercise was herky jerky, but Jovtchev's was elegant, smooth, and - most significantly - demostrated INCREDIBLE strength.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that B-Man but there is also the sense of diplomacy that has to be kept. Hate to say it but the Olympics has and always will be about politics. I don't think, and I'm sure many of you agree, that Hamm's gold will be any less significant if he has to share the title. Besides, Hamm will still be in the history books as the first American man to gold in the all-around. Even Peter Vidmar didn't get that far.

I originally thought Hamm should give up the gold, but after reading this I think he should keep and the Koreans and the media should shut up about it... Hamm's gold shows no tarnish....

"So why not a second gold medal? Why not accommodate the upset Koreans and send everyone home happy? Well for one thing, you can make a pretty good case that, if you're going to go to the videotape, Yang shouldn't have won.

Yes, the videotape of the parallel bars showed the judges erred by assigning a 9.9 start value. But it showed something else, too. In the course of his routine, Yang had four holds on the bar, when the rules allow for a maximum of three. The deduction for that mistake? Two-tenths of a point.

The judges missed it.

It is not enough to say Paul Hamm should keep his gold medal. He's a deserving champion. Period."

Swimmer, thanks for that post! It's nice to read some good perspective from a writer who understands the sport. He also raises a lot of interesting points that many non-sports people have failed to take into consideration. I say bravo to that writer! (I'm also really fuming at the USA Today columnist who suggested Hamm give up the medal, as if he did something wrong and should take the first step to right it. He did nothing wrong and shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it.) Shannon Miller made a good point (as did the Si columnist) that gymnasts know that their sport is subjective and sometimes you do benefit from the human error and sometimes you don't. That's the world they live in. To open the pandora's box and have every score reviewed is just ridiculous. And I feel sorry for the soft-spoken Paul Hamm who can't really enjoy his win and instead is painted as a medal-stealer when that is not the case.

On a side now, yowza, that Bulgarian gymnast Jordan is really hot! He has that whole daddy thing working for him with his light hair and muscles!

Jordan's the silver medalist on the left.

I don't agree with this MSN commentator's conclusion, but he raises an interesting point about Hamm missing an opportunity for a noble and generous (a la Phelps/Crocker, I suppose):
American has the opportunity to show he's true champion
(He also makes an interesting point about U.S.-Korean relations based on the SLC mess. I hate the political aspects of the Olympics as much as anyone, but I can't ignore them either.)

I'd prefer a shared gold, especially in light of the closeness of the scores (one of the closest margins in history, if I recall correctly) and the element of subjectivity inherent in judged scores (as opposed to times or distances). Either performance would have been medal-worthy apart from the error, which was beyond the athletes' control.

And I'm sad to see an outstanding performance marred by after-the-fact controversy. If Hamm had won a silver instead of a gold, he'd still be praised for the comeback. Instead, he has this hanging over his head. frown

Paul shouldnt give it back. It is sad for the Koren, but there is no instant replay in gymnastics. Just like the National Championship game in football: Miami v Ohio State. The replay showed no interference and OSU ended up winning the game. There is no instant replay in college football either.

Did anyone else see Gervasio Deferr of Spain??!

AY. DIOS. MIO.

He looks like a football player. Did I already say

AY. DIOS. MIO?

I need a cold drink and a porn star. wink

Yes. He is definitely extremely handsome, Munson Man.

I am pretty ticked off about NBC not even showing the vaults of the Canadian who came in 4th place. He had small steps on both of his vaults.

Also- Dragalescus judges rated him from everything from a 9.0 to a 9.5 for the second vault. It is ridiculous that he would even get 9.5 on that vault. His vault had only a start value of 9.9 and I thought his MAJOR step off the platform could be considered failed- which would make the top possible score a 9.4 that the judges could give him- then taking off the points for anything else. Some judges took off, some didnt- that should have been discussed amongst the judges.

The Canadian deserved the bronze!!

These gymnastics are becoming the ice skating.

I'm still pissed that Khorkina got a 9.725 on the bar routine of the all around- especially when Carly PAtterson's routine was just after and she got a much lower score. SAD SAD

They just showed tape and explained verrrry clearly the extra hold the Korean gymnast had. It's a *mandatory* deduction.

Will the controversy end now? Well, not likely, but I was for Hamm keeping the gold even before all of this hold business... Hopefully, though, the hold the judges missed will slam this Pandora's Box SHUT.

Just goes to show that if you want to go back and look at something even just small, you've got to consider looking at it all...

I watched the competition last night and I can't believe the rings event. Those guys are amazing! I think the Greek lad got a bit of hometown scoring thrown his way, but nothing so bad that it seemed like a setup.

I love the pommel horse too. I thought that the Romanian Marius Urzica clearly did a better routine than the winner from Japan, Takehiro Kashima. It seems that Urzica got punished for a tiny step on the dismount, even though I thought he was much more fluid and athletic than Kashima, who seemed efficient more than anything.

Even though gymnasts are way too muscle-y for me--lean rowers or high jumpers are more my style--they are incredible athletes to be sure.

I can't claim credit for this. I read it elsewhere. But it's the best idea I've heard...the Korean gymnast can be given the gold medal just as soon as the Olympic Committee awards the 1972 USA men's basketball team THEIR gold medal.

Kyle Shewfelt got robbed on the vault, but he was diplomatic about it. The Canadian coaching staff was not so diplomatic and submitted a protest to the chairman of the technical committee--who "refused to look at it." To add to the controversy, said chairman is Romanian, and the 3rd place vaulter in question (Marian Dragulescu) is also Romanian. The Canadians claim Dragulescu's score of 9.375 was \"mathematically impossible\" given the mandatory deduction for a fall. Plus there was a range of marks from the "B" judges that were beyond the accepted .2 range for Dragulescu. (Dragulescu lost on the tiebreaker points after tie-ing Shewfelt in the floor exercises.)

Anyways, the whole gymnastics judging thing is becomming like figure skating.

-----------------------

Alexi Nemov showed his class in the horizontal bar. The Athens crowd soundly booed his low marks for a very fine performance. Paul Hamm, who was next to perform, couldn't start his routine for several minutes because of the booing. Finally, Nemov jumped up, thanked the crowd for its support of him, and then tried to shush the crowd, imploring them to allow Hamm to proceed. Totally adorable... and a nice guy, to boot!



Nemov trying to quiet the crowd.

[ August 23, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Nemov's routine KICKED ASS
Holy...

It's one thing to read about what happened on-line, but to see it... Crazy shit. But the write ups on-line didn't acknowledge that Paul Hamm started his routine while the crowd was still jeering.

Meanwhile, Cassina, the Italian, he was also ridiculously good. Finally, Morgan Hamm was very solid, and he stuck his landing. Wish he had done something flashy like Cassina to bump his score up.

It's a shame that the judges are really the one's that have robbed us of an all-around great event. All had great routines. That's probably Nemov's last international competition routine we'll ever see.

Cassini's releases are hard to top. Paul Hamm looked good and performed in light of the crowd.

FIG should really re-evaluate their selection process for judges. It's almost ridiculous to have to go through that kind of drama at an event like the Olympics.

Oh, Sexy Alexei, I'm sorry. How could I have even looked at that Spaniard while you still walk the Earth? He was great tonight - his routine was superb, and the way he conducted himself in the face of the bizarre scoring just cemented his reputation as a great champion. Did I mention he's a hunkahunkaburninlove?

I love gymnastics. Purely for the glory of the sport, of course. wink

Europeans know how to celebrate.

Oh I know.... I just love how the russian male gymnasts kiss each other on thew lips......

God! That gets me excited every single time. I keep wishing I was on the russian team.

I'm so pissed that Marion missed on his second vault! Even more pissed at the fact that he didn't get a 10.0 on that spectacular first one! You guys have to admit, we all thought he'd nail the gold by then! Ah well. As for the Paul Hamm controversy, I was teetering on giving the second gold to the South Korean but then I heard about the mandatory deductions he had on his bars event. I'm surprised the media doesn't follow up on that. Even if his routine was graded on a 10.0, he still would have gotten deductions. I think maybe he would have gotten the silver but definately not the gold. I'm also glad Hamm was able to medal, not even the South Korean came close to medaling because he messed up. As far as I'm concerned, Hamm shouldn't have to give up his gold and I'm glad he isn't. I still think a second gold to the South Korean would still be preferable but I guess that will have to be debated after the Olympics are over. As for all the judging controversies, I admit I am surprised that Nemov would say that the judges had it against him. I didn't expect that from him. We all expected it from Khorkina but that's just her being Khorkina. I still think he's hot but I kind of lost some respect for him after he said that. Ah well.

Not to be morbid, but was there coverage anywhere of Alexei Bondarenko crashing on the vault? He was taken to the hospital with a spinal injury.

I'm not a gymnastic expert. I would like to know
from some experts an opinion about Paul Hamm's score on yesterday's horizontal bar competition
I followed the competition on an italian TV and when the score of Hamm appeared, the anchors started to shout (litterarly, I thought they were going crazy) that the marks were too high and that the judges were incapable.

[ August 24, 2004, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

All of these protests coming from the gymnastics portion of the Olympics seem to be getting out of hand. Every single day there's someone saying "I was robbed!!" It's too bad.

I still can't get over the reaction from the crowd regarding Nemov's score. The newspaper said it went on for 10 minutes, but watching it last night they only showed like 5 minutes of booing and whistling.

And it sucks for Dragulescu. If he nailed the second vault he would have gotten the gold.

They need to make the high bar only about release moves or the media is going to always eat them up about scores. The fact is, Paul did several elemtns like swinging with one arm that gather points just like release moves. He also did his release moves in a row unlike the Italian who split them up.

The fact is, there's more than one way to score points and the media (in the uS and elsewhere) needs to do some research before saying that someone was clearly better.

Also, last night, I was glad they showed the 2 tenths deductions that the S Korean deserved. Why is this not being protested in the newspapers by the US team. It's become clear that this videotape will factor into the final decision, so make sure it's done correctly.

I haven't seen the tape that shows the mandatory deductions but the media is referring to it. I have noticed though that noone, especially the U.S. Gymnastic Federation, seems to be putting much pressure to show that Hamm's gold is legit. I agree, DC, that if they're gonna use the tape to show that the South Korean's routine was based on a 10.0 then they have to take the mandatory deductions that the judges missed. If they did, Young definately wouldn't have gotten the gold, probably not even the bronze. Who was in fourth place, does anyone remember? Because, I'm opening another can of worms here, the fourth place gymnast can then file that he deserved the bronze because Young would have finished fourth!

Additionally, I saw today that the head of the FIG has said that although they can do nothing, he wishes Paul would take off his medal and give it to the S Korean.

This makes me so angry, why should Paul have to be the one person who suffers here and has to "make this right." Further, it seems that there is no right answer anyway because further deductions should have been made. Also, if Paul did for some reason decide to give up his medal, would the S Korean in second happily hand over his silver and take bronze?

The whole thing is a big joke and now Russia is contesting all the results because that b*tch Khorkina can't see that she was lucky to get what she got.

Not a knowledgeable gymnastics watcher--only pay attention to it during the Olympics--but Marion Dragulescu's first vault was amazing!! Absolutely breathtaking. I was on my couch and screamed "Yes" and cheered it--all alone. Even the commentators were calling for a 10.0, though he got a 9.90.

I still miss the beautiful Vitali Scherbo...

~Adam

DC Guy, if it's a matter of national pride, then yes, I imagine the second place finisher would probably take the bronze medal, not happily I would think. Besides, there's also the matter of the additional deductions. Like I said, the fourth place finisher can now contend saying that if Young indeed would have finished fourth because of the .20 deductions, he should be entitled to that particular medal.

And then the commentators totally jinxed the poor guy, talking about how his second vault was going to be a "cakewalk" right as we was getting ready to do it. It wasn't, really.

Is it me or are the gymnastics commentators completely annoying? It could be I'm just not used to watching gymnastics on TV.

I watched the gymnastics last night, and I agree with Canmark that Kyle Shewfelt was robbed for the bronze. As much as I think Dragalescu is the hottest man alive, and would like to be his sex slave (okay, for a weekend), he didn't deserve the bronze due to his second vault.

But you know what else I noticed? This board has said nothing about Kyle and his floor gold. I don't know if anyone in the states saw it, but it was amazing.

I watched NBC for a while, and they showed Hamnn, and Dragalescu, but didn't show the Canadian, and talked about more about why the American didn't get the gold, and then mentioned in passing that the Canadian had.

Even BBCworld showed almost his entire routine. So what gives?

I thought the final night of individual gymnastics was a total joke with the judges. Who picks these people??? Their scores were all over the place, no wonder the crowd got all riled up. I agree that there is more to the high bar than just daring releases, but still, Nemov did a wonderful routine and it deserved more than fifth place.

But I think Paul also did a great routine, so I don't think he should be ashamed with getting the silver. I wanted to kill the NBC commentator who said Paul was probably going into the routine hoping for a silver so that he wouldn't have to explain another gold. Um, this is called the Olympics? Everyone competes for the gold. I'm sure Paul gave it his all and didn't hold back. I feel bad for him that he's been placed in such a bad situation, and I do wish some columnists calling for a second gold medal for the South Korean gymnast would consider the argument that if you review his entire routine on tape, then there are mandatory deductions that WEREN'T included, so it's not as simple as saying his starting score was off.

And I agree that the U.S. Olympics committee is acting spineless trying to find the "diplomatic" way to resolve this and not really coming out to support Paul's effort and performance. They seem to be so willing to shut down the controversy that they're willing to concede to anything. Bleh! See what happens when we leave a sport to officials after the fact. Just leave it to the performance of the athletes at the moment and leave it at that.

By the way, I taped Paul Hamm's performance when he did his final two routines for the all-around competition and I have the reaction of the crowds and his sense of pure joy when he found out he won the gold. And that's the images I'll be replaying again and again.

Oh, and another thing, don't forget that the category for this sport is publicized as "artistic gymnastics."

Exactly. The focus should be on the athletes, but because of the judges' screwups, it isn't this time. frown

I think part of the problem is the way the scoring system works. There's no reward for doing anything above what's needed for a 10.0 start value. If everybody has a 10.0 start value, as was probably the case on the horizontal bar, the only thing that can be used to separate them is deductions due to form breaks. Nemov had the worst landing of any of the contenders, so he got the biggest deduction. His program might have been more difficult than anybody else's except Cassini, but he gets no bonus for that. On the parallel bar, the effect was that everybody wound up with practically the same score.

There's an article on this issue (written prior to last night's fiasco) here

The other thing is that apparently they're doing a lousy job of following the mandatory deductions rules. Some judges gave Dragulescu vault a 9.5--which is impossible if you give him the 0.5 deduction for the fall and a 9.9 start value. I have a feeling there was a reluctance to drop him from the podium after such an amazing first vault, especially given the way he lost the gold on the floor. Sentiment shouldn't be allowed to govern scoring.

I think the problem is more acute in men's gymnastics than women's because (at least at this Olympics), their start values were lower and their errors more numerous, so there was more separation. Effectively, I think the 10.0 score for the women is for an exercise which really pushes the limit of what the top gymnasts can do, whereas it seems like that's not the case on the men's side. As a result, the scoring seemed a lot more consistent, and while Khorkina's unhappy, I haven't seen any independent support of that position. The fact is, 9.462 is a really high score on women's vault. It was the highest anyone posted in the all-around and would have placed her in 4th in the event final.

It is a shame that all these scoring controversies are overshadowing the performances. Last night was a complete fiasco.

What is most frustrating to me is some people seem to blame the hooplah on the American teams and atheletes. This has nothing with the athletes and everything to do with the judges.

I also watched the gymnastics portion of the olympics last night and I was floored at how poorly the judges scored the athletes.

I think that the rule regarding not modifying scores after the scores have been issued should remain as is. I only say that because if scores are allowed to be reconsidered, everyone and their grandma will be disputing scores.

The answer to the problem is to appoint qualified judges. Putting pressure on athletes to exchange medals is unfair. The athletes should only have to worry about doing their best in their event.

I think Mrs. Hamm said it best: the results are a compilation of "...dozens and dozens of subjective decisions taken by judges over the course of a competition...". This debacle isn't the result of doping, a judge unwittingly putting in a score he/she didn't intend, or judging collusion/cheating (so far) and it shouldn't be "judged" as if it were. As almost proven by the fact that deductions weren't given for the Korean's extra hold, the real bottom line is that the judges are making Subjective Decisions, which include their own prejudices and preferrences, as to how an athlete should be marked (e.g., I'd be hard pressed to believe that a different set of judges would give the exact same scores to every athlete for the exact same routines). To hang Hamm on the results of one apparatus without evaluating the idiosynchrocies of every start value and score on every other event for every athlete in the all-around is nonsense...

And shame on all the "badges and jackets" for putting the burden on Hamm's shoulders, and on the holier-than-thou journalists who in any way infer that Hamm is less than honest or upstanding if he doesn't give up his medal...what utter bullshit...

And now, on to more important matters :cool: :

Hotness Medals Podium :

Bronze: Jovtchev..."Thank you sir, may I have another"...Yumm-ola!

Silver: Deferr....I almost fell off my pommel horse when this one flashed on the screen...where have they been hiding him?? Line forms to the right, MunsonMan...

Gold: Nemov.....a start value of 10 with no deductions...as he was at the last Olympics, the caviar of the field...

I agree. Some of these journalists have me fumed. Thankfully, there are other columnists who strongly support Hamm. One of them is E.W. Swift who writes for SI. I wish I could create a link but I'm not too savvy with the internet to know how. Sorry! Look it up on the CNN sports site and you'll see his column. It's beautiful. Now on to a lighter subject, there was an article, I forgot which site MSNBC I think, that talked about the endorsement futures of all the medal winners. It said that the Hamm brothers have a great story to tell but the writer pointed out that Paul would be a difficult sell because of one thing: his voice! Another writer said that while Paul exudes a nice boy-next-door demeanor his voice may turn off people. Poor guy! He just doesn't seem to get a break.

I was just reading on the NYTimes website that Hamm will appear on the David Letterman show Wednesday night. He apparently wanted to leave Athens right away. Poor guy. Does anyone know if he participated in the exhibition show? I feel like sending him a card or something. Seriously!

It's very common for US medal winners to leave the Olympics early to start making the talk-show rounds. I doubt his leaving early was for any other reason.

Yeah, Paul Hamm did a thing at the exhibition. The Romanians were great during the exhibition, and several of the male gymnasts were fantastic too and really played up the fun aspect of the exhibition.

That said, I would have preferred to have seen a lot more track and field and men's diving.

Could someone help me figure this out? I understand that the South Koreans filed their appeal too late after the Men's All-Around. Yet their appeal is still generating controversy.

Why then isn't it too late for the fourth place guy to file an appeal asking for the bronze medal. If Yang should have received a mandatory deduction, why isn't there pressure on him to do the right thing and give up the bronze medal?

I imagine, Tiev, that's probably on the horizon someplace. You have to admit, with all this controversy around judging, this matter will be around for quite some time. Remember, the Bulgarians, Canadians, and Russians are also complaining but most of the attention has been on the South Koreans. Then there's the matter of the World Championships coming up. Not just in gymnastics but for all those sports with judges making the final decisions like diving, figure skating, etc. And as for Hamm leaving early, I suppose that's true that many medalists would leave to do the talk show circuit. Still, with all the hoopla that's been happening with gymnastics, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he was leaving because he felt the Games were no longer fun.