I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this, but the conversation originated by watching the men’s long program. Move it if necessary.

I went to breakfast this morning. Where I go is usually populated with middle age to retired men. Most don’t know that I am gay, but the 4 or 5 men I usually share a table with do know.

When I got there they were watching the men’s long program on the USA network. I was surprised at how into it they were when watching. Most agreed that Plushenko’s points were to high, he was a powerful athlete but lacked some of the emotion an artistic skill of the others. (Yes they used those words).

Then Lambiel came on the ice and these middle age working class men became the judging panel on Project Runway. They got down right catty on making remarks about that outfit. Comments from a blind tailor to a beastalitists perverted dream were made. They got a kick out of how outrageous some of these costumes were.

This lead into how tight some of these costumes are. One of the guys at the table next to us commented how it “showed off their powerful hindquarters”. The guy owns livestock and has won in our state fair so he knows about powerful hindquarters. Another guy commented “yea, they have to have strong backsides to do all those jumps”. Another commented “yeah the must do a lot of glute work”. Okay I noticed none of them could actually say ass or butt, and would have had no problem if the skater was female.

Then the guy next to me asks “if I was a butt man.” Well I turned a shade of red. He then asked if I liked Lambiel’s butt. I said yes it was nice. Another guy then says, “I never understand what a guy gets out of a butt.” To which, the guy who asked me the original question looks at me and says, “I don’t think it is what Todd gets out of a butt, it is what he puts into it.” Well now I turned several shades of red and desperately wanted to go invisible.

This led to some ribbing over my embarrassment and another guy at my table wanting my judging scores off other butts. I couldn’t believe I was having this discussion and sizing up the skaters on the ice. Then the subject of gay figure skaters came up. I was asked if I thought any were gay. I said none of them were out but I am sure there were gay ones. By that time Weir was on the ice. So one asked if I though Weir was gay. I said of course. He thought he was too, but his wife thinks he is just a very artistic boy. That caused a laugh and another discussion about being gay and gay men.

I left still recovering from my embarrassment but was shocked at where the conversation had lead. These men who normally discuss the weather, sports (though not ice skating), and politics, actually got into watching the figure skating. It also lead to a conversation I don’t think I would have ever had with them, if it wasn’t for watching those men in tight outrageous costumes, using their powerful hindquarters to go flitting about the ice.

Kujhawker, I love your story. Very funny and enteraining. And it happened in Kansas--isn't that a RED state? God, what's going on that real RED state men are open to BLUE state ideas? If you noticed, last night I too had a comment about Lambiel's ass. My skater friends call it 'skater's butt' as I used to call my butt a 'squash butt' when I played squash. It was a thing of beauty once, but that's another day and story and thread.

Heeeeeeeere's Johnny!

Out? In? Or Past All That?

Hank Stuever is family.

[ February 17, 2006, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

This was the first time I've watched a skating contest from start to finish using the new scoring system. I hate it. It means that the programs now are nothing but jumps. In Prince Valiant's case, jumping and spazzing your arms about as if you're being attacked by invisible biting squirrels. And his footwork reminds me of an old washing machine spinning across the floor.

Wow, were Sandhu's pants stitched onto him. His butt looked like a pair of eggplants.

So, we've had two competitions in Turin and both were won by skaters who had managed not to totally screw it up. I fear the women's competition will be much worse.

Info on Weir's music on his profile page on the US Figure Skating website:

Short program music: "The Swan" by Camille Saint-Saens; Free skate music: "Otonal"

Somewhere on the Internet I found Takahashi's music as "Piano Concerto No. 2 by Sergei Rachmaninov"

I loved that many of the skaters were using my favorite music for their programs. It is nice when you know what they are skating to.

I love the great story from Kansas. I understand the embarrassment as well.

I LOVE the description of Plushenko as being attacked by crazed squirrels. His arm movements are just not consistent with the rest of what is going on.

It is a shame that the new scoring program so heavily rewards technical merit. It is important that you can jump, but it is equally important that you connect the elements with something other than a few steps and arm motions in between. One of the reasons that Surya Bonaly was never a dominant force in women's skating. She was a great technician, but could not connect the dots all that well.

Fruity Galindo is actually calling out Johnny Queer. Ms. Galindo sounds like one bitter, tired queen.

Galindo making fun of someone being so "gay" is just too much!

Kujhawker, thanks for that excellent post. You really know how to set a scene, and it's great to hear about those responses.

Well, what a disappointment. I can only chime in my agreement about *really* disliking the way the technical outweighs artistry. Weir may have been reserved and cut his jumps down from 13 to 8 with no quads, but his program was still in many ways the most beautiful to my eyes, and I didn't even care for the outfit. Definitely more artistic than Plushenko's sub-"jazz hands" approach, even if Plushenko is the overall better skater.

What really bugs me is the way Buttle -- completely out of sync with some lovely Saint-Saens, the same composer Weir uses so well in the short -- can benefit from falling on a quad just because he made the rotations.

The results aren't a total surprise, because Weir played around with his free skate in the nationals -- he just doesn't seem sure of it the way he is about "The Swan," and for good reason. Still, I wish he had bee nable to finish above Lysacek, who I admittedly didn't see. Evan's fine but he's familiar whereas Weir is new school and I love the way he's brought some uncensored smart queeniness into mainstream media.

I'm not a fan of figure skating but I do watch it evey four years--actually prefer the pair skating to the individuals--and don't really follow the changes in judging & scoring so I hope one of the many fans on this board will help me out. In the past, one of the things that I most enjoyed was the cohesion of the long programs, with elements building on what had come before, all to create am evocative, flowing unified visision. Last night, it seemed the majority of the skaters performed disjointed programs, with jumps and spins that didn't lead into anything and never came together to form a complete program. Is that because of the changes in scoring? As skaters and choreographers get more familiar with the new scoringt system, will they be able to create more engaging programs or does the scoring system preclude that happening?

Matt Savoie and, to an extent, Jeffrey Buttle, seemed to do the best job at grafting the new emphasis on the technical onto unified programs.

~Adam

Well, at least with the new scoring system it appears that there may actually be a competition in ice dancing.

I loved KU's story so much, I led our Olympics notebook with it.

I was suprised when I came to the Outsports homepage this morning to find a graphic of my state behind Weir, even more suprised to find that it was my story.

I'm glad that you liked it, and I am flattered that it made the Olympics notebook. Thank you.

Great story, Kujhawker...and thanks for the music names canmark!
spb

Great story KU!! Really enjoyed it
Congrats on the win today too

Copying him?!?

Right...because there has never been a flaming, overtly feminine, gay male figure skater until Galindo came along. Yup. He was the first and only.

I dont see the need to sit and wonder if Weir is gay because everyone obviously knows he is. I hadnt seen him until today since I dont follow skating much (my jaw dropped at some of the half nekkid pictures of him I found online). But one need only look at him. More proof? Read his website profile favorties, like ohhh Madonna and Christina Aguilera. Lord of the Rings, Velvet Goldmine, Hedwig. Yeah thats pretty darn gay Pretty boy. Decent skater so I hear. Lets just hope he comes off the coke. Also wouldnt he and Ian Thorpe make a lovely olympic couple?

*Sorry have to update this further. I just turned on USA network and they have a skating recap show. The segment on right now is "Weir Eye for the Skate Guy" about fashion. Come on!!

[ February 19, 2006, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: DallasUNC ]

Not sure if this has been posted already. From the Chicago Tribune. Outsports media whore JB is quoted. wink

I have to say that I am loving Dick and Tracy commentating a lot more than Dick and Sandra Bezic. She is a nit-wit who just seems to be off the mark with some of her commentary.

The Ice Dancing allows the more comfortable and enjoyable Tracy Wilson to re-surface (she was an ice dancer) and she plays off Dick much better.

Still waiting for the top teams to skate.

My goodness gracious me, i had to double check that i was not actually watching the pairs skating, there were so many horrible falls!!! i cannot ever remember a night like this in ice dancing before. the italian Diva Barbra Fusar was just evil after her partner dropped her. And the canadiens, ouch that REALLY hurt. good for the Americans that they stayed on their skates and did well. i am still in shock as a whole at all the high profile wipeouts eek!

The American ice dancing pair gave a tremendous free dance program tonight and walked off with a beautiful silver medal. This is the first time in 30 years the US has come up with a medal in this event, and it is only the second ever. Not a strong event for the US teams.

They were really spectacular, and you could tell. The NBC commentators were silent through the whole performance because they were riveted to the ice.

The favored Russian pair (he is a bit of a hottie) walked away with the gold, but the event was fairly close. Worlds will be quite interesting in a few weeks.

Pairs and ice dancing has never interested me as much as individual skating, but I got caught up in the ice dancing this year and found I really enjoyed it. What exactly distinguishes ice dancing from pairs? Is it that the men do not seem to lift the women above their heads? What about jumps? Are the lutz, axel, etc. not permitted either? As for last night, I was shocked at some of the falls. The Italian skater really lived up to her diva nickname. NBC was following them today and documenting how they were avoiding each other. Dick Button essentially called her out and said he hoped her very young daughter was not watching. Bee-yotch!! Of course after the skate it was all hugs and kisses, then he was backstage bawling his eyes out. Quelle drama! I have to watch more ice dancing - it's like Ibsen on ice. wink

Ice dancing is actual dancing (ballroom style) on skates, while the pairs competition is more technically oriented.

Ice dancers were allowed to do "lifts" starting in 2002 I think. Neither skater used to be allowed to have both feet off the ice simultaneously. Unlike pairs where the magical components are the twists, lifts, and throw jumps.

Ice dancers cannot do jumps or other types of elements, and I think they are limited to the number of lifts in the program as well.

I was starting to like that Italian couple... until they fell. Then I started to dislike them more and more from that point on.

The playground staredown at the end of that program where they fell was hilarious. But I actually started to feel embarrassed for them when they were not talking to each other like a couple of spoiled junior high brats.

Dick Button's probably the biggest bitch in all of figure skating, and should be yanked off the air as soon as possible, but I actually agreed with him on that one point. Who'd look back on those little tantrums and pouting antics of theirs with pride? Seriously, 10 or 20 years down the road, who wouldn't be ashamed of that display? Who wouldn't be ashamed of it even now?

The two skaters have to be a team. They have to work together. You've got to commnicate with your teammate no matter what the sport is, as long as there's more than one of you on that team. Refusing to talk to, look at, or even acknowledge your own partner right before a performance is pathetically petty, juvenille, and well, just downright sad. I was actually hoping and praying that they'd fall again, just to see what the next calculatedly over-the-top reaction would be. Would they have actually started punching each other à la good ol' fashioned hockey throwdown? My bets would have been on her if it came to that. Maybe it did, afterwards, since he was crying like a baby off-stage. More like "Is the camera on me again?....No? Well, look! Over here!!! I'm crying!! See?"

So they have a clean skate, and they're all hugs and kisses again?!? Uh-huh.

All way too fabricated for my taste. At least they didn't medal.

[ February 21, 2006, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Tennis Guy ]

well, I would like to see you falling and throwing your chances away after all the hard work you put into it :confused:

I missed the skate, but reading in the Times today to learn that it's the second time he has fallen in Olympic competition, I can really see why she is so pissed off. I love it. The first time was in Salt Lake City when they went on to win the bronze anyway.

yup, he fell in Salt Lake City too. That time he fell alone though.

I remember when Maurizio fell in Salt Lake, they were doing the side-by-side straight line footwork and he caught an edge and fell on his backside. I was so upset for them because I wanted them to win or at least beat Anissina & Peizerat of France. My heart goes out to Maurizio. He takes most of the criticism and yesterday not even his partner was not on his side. Everyone is talking about the look Barbara gave him but I saw his look to her. He was so sorry and he wanted her forgiveness. He even gave a slight smile wanting a reaction from her. It was so sad. I'm glad she didn't desert him in the end. Andrea, what is the reaction in Italy to that moment after the original dance? Do you live in Torino or nearby?

[ February 21, 2006, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: simontexas ]

TV channels played that look over and over for the whole next day. At the end I couldn't watch it anymore. Some joked about the fact it seemed she wanted to kill him directly on the ice.
She said that that looks meant "sfiducia" (translation is "mistrust" or "loss of confidence"), because she realized all was lost (in terms of chances to win a medal).
Then she actually complained about the score being too hard with them (but I don't actually agree).
The other Italian couple fell too: it wasn't a very good night!

No offense, but that's a very, very weak argument. Many athletes who've worked very hard for their respective Olympics, many who were favored in their events, have fallen or tripped, or have had otherwise poor performances. They didn't act like spoiled brats like she did, especially. What about the Canadian pair and the other Italian pair that also fell? Did they not work hard preparing for the Olympics?

well, but that's the point. Everyone has their different reactions to events. she was angry. don't you really expcet her producing fake smiles (just to throw something at him in the backstage)?
But then I think it's personal. I wasn't very disturbed by her reaction, but others could find it not classy. Personally I can't stand athletes that when they win, they start to do a surprising face-look covering their mouth (like Fusar Poli after the first dance)

I realize everyone reacts their own way. But I don't care how individual the reactions are, adults who are supposed to be professional acting world-class atheletes shouldn't act like sulking and pouting little brats when things don't go their way. That was just plain deplorable.

I never understood the old judging system, and I certainly don't understand the new judging system. Meisner was the only one in the top 6 to do a triple-triple combination, yet she's not in the top 3 or 4. Was her "second mark" that bad compared to the others?

And of the top 4, how the hell does Slutskaya get higher scores than Arakawa and Suguri? They looked much more graceful and ballet-like with what appeared to be the same technical difficulty. Slutskaya looked like Plushenko in drag out there with lots of fast flailing arms with jumps inbetween.

Tennis Guy -- interesting how you picked up on the similarities between the two Russian skaters. I agree totally. They are one and the same -- really leveraging the new scoring system to try and maximize points and wins. No real concern over artistry.

It was nice to see a more complete skater come out on top. Sasha has had plenty of difficulties at big events, but she nailed the short program tonight. Very complete performance. Kind of a shame that she finished so little above Slutskaya. Her skate was definitely the better program.

And the other skaters you mentioned really did skate well.

Unfortunately, no matter what scoring system is used, we will always have some pre-ordained judging. The judges are kind of the same as other sports officials. They often call what they expect to see, not what they do see. (How many times do basketball referees call a foul from clear across the court without ever really seeing the play? All the time.)

The skating judges did not expect Meissner to be competing with the top skaters and she went early in the evening. So, her scores left room for the other skaters. And (naturally) the judges slotted some of the top names above her in the rankings. She can still medal however with a good free skate.

Sasha always does well on the short program. That has never been a problem for her. The really question is whether she can hold it together in the long where she is likely to implode.

I think we've to agree to disagree here!
Anyway, am I the only one thinking their costumes were terrible?

As far as the scoring, I think it's partly that it's still biased in favor of the top skaters, and partly that the change of name from artistic expression to program components is not merely cosmetic. In theory, artistic expression always involved technical skating skills, but now they're forced to give all those things numerical values rather than just give an overall impression. The CBC commentators thought Meissner hadn't made it all the way around on the second triple in the combination, by the way, and weren't sure she'd get credit for it. Although I thought they said she had, maybe they took something out of her program components mark.

On the plus side: practically no falls! And although she's not especially elegant, I don't think Slutskaya is anywhere near as spastic looking as Plushenko.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned because I'm being lazy and not reading all the posts.
But another thing about the scoring - the computer program is designed to randomly pick only 9 of the 12 judges scores; therefore, on any given selection, and depending on the range of scores, Sasha could have had a greater lead, Irina could be in first or even Shizuki or Fumie could be in the lead (I'm not sure how far back they were). It was designed to keep judges more honest. Also, as we learned from Salt Lake, the judges do have to defend their scoring post competition, especially if their scores are consistently higher for certain skaters.

Their costume was terrible but not the worst. That honor would go to the woman (don't remember who she was) who seemed to be wearing white/silver tasseled pasties and a silver Wonder Woman-style headband. Bizarre!

~Adam

They announced the skating order for the long program, and it's uneasily similar to Nagano.

Remember Michelle Kwan skated 1st or 2nd in the final group, and Lipinisky skated near the end?

Well, Sasha Cohen is slated to skate second, and Slutskaya's near the end. And right before her? Kimmie Meissner. Could Kimmie be the Lipinsky/Sara Hughes of 06?? I kind of hope not, but at this point, I'm getting more of an "anyone but Slutskaya" feeling. I mean, I like her, but I just don't think she's technically better than Sasha/Kimmie/Fumi/Shizuka, and the only one she's better than artistically, maybe, is Kimmie. I think most skaters in that final group are much more complete.

Go Sasha!!!

[speling editz]

[ February 22, 2006, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Tennis Guy ]

Did anyone else enjoy Dick Button, while describing the tension in someone's jumping move, shouting "Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Don't lose it!"

Was he really talking to Scott?

If you are implying that Dick Button is a homosexual, I won't believe it for a milisecond! lol

I can still hear in my head, when Rudy Galindo was in his free skate at th 96 Nationals, Rudy had just done a triple triple combo and the sounds that were coming out of Dick's mouth...it was funny, he couldn't contain his excitement.

Dick is a total queen. Please. Part of his endearing quality is his ability to apply his gay sensibilities to what takes place on the ice. Of course, he does come across as a bitchy queen often, and that is sometimes fun as well.


SPOILER ALERT -- DON'T READ IF YOU ARE WAITING FOR THE NBC COVERAGE THIS EVENING


Wow!! A total shock in the Long Program. Sasha fell early in the final group and Irina fell late. This allowed Arakawa to slide to the top of the rankings and take home a gold medal. Japan has been coming on so strong in women's skating, but she was not really one of the favorites I don't think. What a turn of events.

Sasha did hold on for the silver and Irina will have to take home a bronze. I imagine she will be complaining about that. But she finished 2 full points behind Sasha.

So, the first major surprise in the ice rink. It will be fun to see how events actually unfolded.

[ February 23, 2006, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: charliecstl ]

From Jim:

SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD

DO NOT READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW THE SKATING RESULT

STAY OUT OF THIS THREAD

DON'T SAY YOU WEREN'T WARNED! [Big Grin]

What a complete shock. Okay, first off, I knew Sasha would blow it. It's kind of expected. If she has never given a clean performance at a major competition for the 6+ years she's skated at elite level, why on earth would sports critics think it will finally happen in such a pressure cooker that is the Olympics? But with even with one fall, I was sure Irina would take it.

Emily Hughes was a complete wash at 7th place. What the idiots at Newsday thought about her being a chance for the gold medal, is beyond my comprehension.

I am also now absolutely convinced that a healthy Michelle Kwan could have wiped the floor with this competition. The whole hype about Kwan not being up to today's standards, my ass. A 24 year old with the least technical brilliance gets the gold. Irina at 27 gets the bronze. It was old ladies night.

[ February 23, 2006, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: savvy ]

Cohen looks freakishly thin. Hughes, who is 4 years younger, looks bigger, stronger, healthier. There were all of these comments after the short program about Cohen trying to be less concerned about "being perfect." Yikes.

Arikawa won the worlds a couple years ago and when she didn't do that well the year after, people were writing her off. The way she skated all this week, she deserved it. She's a great blend of jumps and artistry. Very elegant young lady.

The overall night was really disappointing, though. The only other Olympics that were worse, were the long programs in Albertville, when almost everyone fell, except Yamaguchi, and she had a really sloppy landing on one jump. But this was almost as bad.

Surprising that Sasha could still get the silver with two falls, while Slutskaya got a bronze with one fall. Suguri must be pissed, she didn't fall, but didn't look all that great artistically either.

So in a night when no skaters skated their best, and in fact, most skated like $hit:

Gold = conservative but elegant program where the only mistake was doubling a triple

Silver = two early falls but landing everything else with the best grace and artistry in the field

Bronze = one fall later in the program, doubling a triple, and having the artistry of an epileptic seizure

If I had paid to watch it, I would have demanded a refund.

From a technical standpoint, Cohen only fell once. The second "fall" is not considered a fall because her ass never hit the ice. She managed to catch herself by putting both hands down, so there was no deduction for it.

It is always a shame to see skaters "lose" the medals rather than win them. Arakawa did skate cleanly, but was impressive mostly out of relative comparisons. She is only the ninth best skater in the world rankings. She won by holding it together while the others did not. It would be nice to see the medalists just simply outskate the field.

I totally agree -- a healthy Kwan would probably have won the event. She does all the things the judges love, and she would have killed the field in the long program tonight. She is probably at home hating this just a little.

Cohen does look freakishly small. I thought her thinness would be considered alarming if she were a Hollywood starlet.

There was really no inspirational performance tonight. The music selections outshined the skating. Sasha was pretty awesome once you got past the first 30 seconds of the program.

Slutskaya only fell once. However, she chose music that is not very complementary to her skating style. Other skaters were choosing Romeo and Juliet and Rachmaninoff and she was skating to some elevator muzak. Her lack of artistic prowess caught up with her as well tonight. Plus, she really took a tumble late in the program when the judges could really remember it. Sasha fell early and then left with a great finish. Again, no inspiration from watching Irina skate.

The worst commentary of the night? Sandra Bezic: "Other skaters skate to Romeo and Juliet, but Sasha is Juliet." Please!! Give me a break. Worst skating commentator ever perhaps.

[ February 23, 2006, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: charliecstl ]

Oh man what a poor night of skating for the women. None of the top ladies skated to their potential. I'm happy for Arakawa, she was so elegant and smooth. She seemed to get the best crowd reaction of the night. Cohen disappoints again. She just seems to have some sort of mental block on the big occasions. Slutskaya was a surprise. All she had to do to win was stay on her feet. She never falls, and there she is splat on the ice. I wonder what Michelle Kwan is thinking. She has skated better than that on dozens of occasions. Her 98' Olympic performance would easily have won. Too bad.

And this event proved the big myth about the COP system. It was suppose to be tailor-made for athletic skaters, but the judges clearly voted artistry over athleticism. It's basically the old 6.0 system disguised, only now it requires ugly and overly long spins.

This competition just pisses me off even more, because the media was writing off a healthy Kwan as being surpassed by everyone, when clearly cleanliness and having the overall package is pretty much the most important underestimated factor (and that's Kwan's category). In reality, it's NEVER a comparison between a clean skate to a clean skate. At each Olympics only 1 skater ever skates clean of the ones that are actually in contention to medal. Kwan would be going in as in obvious threat simply because she's good at staying on her feet.

And did anyone notice? 5 triples won gold. And NO ONE on the podium did a 3/3.

Just watch. Leading up to Vancouver, everyone will forget this competition and again hype up that you need the 3/3 to win.

[ February 24, 2006, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: savvy ]

She probably is, but I bet she's a little satisfied as well, if she's thinking of competing next year.
that was cringe worthy.

[ February 24, 2006, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: savvy ]