Outgames 2009: Future world event up in the air Print E-mail
Gay Sports Movement - Outgames 2009
Monday, 03 August 2009 00:58

The future of the World Outgames depends on large amounts of public money. This could be a tough sell given the global recession and the large dropoff in attendance between 2006 and 2009.

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Outsports.com

Now that the second World Outgames have ended in Copenhagen, the question of will there be a third is still unanswered.

More on the future World Outgames in a moment. But having spent the week covering the sporting events in Copenhagen (I skipped all the human rights conferences), I give high marks to the organizers and volunteers.

outgames200901300
A swimmer stretches at the Copenhagen Aqua Arena. Check out our latest photo gallery from the Outgames.



There are always glitches at every multisport gay and lesbian event, and Copenhagen was no exception. But by and large, the sports were held in quality venues, were well run and played by enthusiastic athletes. It was what I expected. People were playing sports in a beautiful and accommodating city with other gay and lesbian athletes; there was little to dislike (except the outrageously high food prices).

There were two gay-bashing incidents that cast a shadow over the event. First, three people were injured in a street attack after the opening ceremony. Three days later, one person was hurt after a 31-year-old man hurled three bombs (9-inch explosives) onto the track and field venue. The man was arrested with at least six more devices in his backpack and it was luck that only one person was hurt. It pissed me off when the spin around town was that these were mere "fireworks," as if some teen was lobbing cherry bombs as a prank. This was a serious attack and I was surprised at how little attention the incident received (I was the only media person to speak with the injured athlete).

Overall, Copenhagen came off relatively smoothly, but this does not mean there will be another World Outgames in 2013. Everything has to do with money, and the event has to basically start from scratch. Antwerp, Belgium, is the preferred site, but no contract has yet to be signed with the city and GLISA, the umbrella organization that licenses the Outgames.

"We don't know yet," where the 2013 Games will be held, GLISA co-president Wessel Van Kampen of Amsterdam, told Outsports contributing writer Ross Forman. "Last year, at the delegate congress in Vancouver, our membership told the board that we like the [application from] Antwerp, Belgium very much, so go ahead and negotiate a contract with them. And we're in the process of doing that."

Good luck. The 2006 Outgames in Montreal had about 8,000 participants, with 2009 Copenhagen getting 4,400 athletes plus another 1,100 conference attendees. This is a downward trend that does not bode well for GLISA to find a city willing to spend public money on the event, and the World Outgames can't exist without public funds. The Guardian in London nicely summed up the financial realities in Copenhagen:

"The ($6 million) the city of council of Copenhagen used to fund the games has provoked the ire of some commentators, who have also been less than impressed with the number of participants. When Copenhagen was first announced as the host city ... there were hopes for more than 15,000 people to take part - an estimate that is far off the 5,500 participants who have registered at the Outgames headquarters this week."

Any city looking to host the event will do a cold financial calculation before committing money (even more so during a global recession) and 5,500 registrants is a weak number to justify a large financial outlay. Antwerp was to have paid GLISA a $209,000 deposit by July 1 but failed, blaming the recession. Van Kampen said that GLISA has alternatives if Antwerp falls through, but would not name them.

Without public money, a future Outgames will have to rely on corporate sponsors, and those were few and far between in Copenhagen. I fail to see how Antwerp would be any better given the low profile of the event and the new global economic realities. The World Outgames will never be held in the U.S. (no government anywhere would give money) or again in Canada (the 2006 Montreal Outgames went bankrupt and left a trail of creditors), so this pretty much leaves Western Europe as the only alternative. GLISA does not have a lot of options.

There has been a lot of talk recently of merging the Outgames and Gay Games into one event (likely to be called the Gay Games given its much longer history). GLISA co-president Julia Applegate told Forman that if this happened, she'd be a strong proponent to maintain the Outgames' cultural program and human rights conference alongside the sports program. To hear a GLISA official broach the subject tells me that its officers know that sustaining the World Outgames will be difficult (smaller regional Outgames like those planned for New Zealand in 2011 have a much better chance of long-term success).

One interesting comparison will come next year when the 2010 Gay Games are held in Cologne, Germany. Should the Gay Games, in existence since 1982, draw significantly more registrants than Copenhagen, this will show that it's more than the recession that affected turnout for the 2009 World Outgames. I suspect the world is only big and rich enough for one international gay and lesbian sporting event.

Comments
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Roberto Mantaci   |151.30.134.xxx |2009-08-03 20:38:30
Suppose that one day a group of individuals decide that outsports.com is
"too american" or that it is "too dictatorial" or that they
simply realize that a site like outsports in a situation of monopoly represents
an indeniabe commercial interest and they want to get a part of the cake and
possibly, eventually, the entire cake.

Therefore they independently decide to
create a competitor website. Let's call this imaginary website
"gaysports.ca".

Suppose that despite the name of the website, and
possibly in the attempt to make "gaysports.ca" the leader in this
category with respect of number of hits and hence with respect to the commercial
value of the ads, this group of individuals decide that "gaysports.ca"
will deal not only with LGBT sports but also, and with the same extent, with
LGBT culture and LGBT human rights.

Suppose that after a while, it turns out
that "gaysports.ca" has more difficulties than foreseen, not only to
replace outsports.com as the leader of LGBT sports websites but simply to take
off with respect to the number of hits. Their attempt of putsch has failed and
they are in trouble.

Outsports.com, on the other hand, remains the leader,
however the duopoly situation heavily affects the total number of hits
outsports.com receives and hence reduces the value of ads therein, so putting in
jeopardy its existence as well.

Furthermore, suppose the entire LGBT sports
community is pissed at this situation that basically generates only duplication
in contents as well as practical problems such as discussions that take place
simultaneously on the two sites, forcing people to follow both sites if they
want to keep up. The LGBT community hence starts asking for a return to a unique
main LGBT sports website.

In such a situation, would outsports.com accept a
"merging" with "gaysports.ca" even if they do not have the least
responsibility for its creation ? And should it?

And if so, would outsports.com
accept to modify its core mission (which is to cover almost exclusively issues
related to LGBT in sports or mainstream sports as they relate to the LGBT
community) and include also LGBT culture and LGBT human rights? And should it?
Roberto Mantaci  - Truncated comment (too long?)   |151.30.134.xxx |2009-08-03 20:45:23
Parhaps better readable here :
http://www.outsports.com/forums/index.php?showto
pic=41157&pid=384998&st=0&#entry384998
Sorry about that.
Tony Jasinski  - OutGames were a big mistake   |151.151.98.xxx |2009-08-04 09:02:12
I hope the athletes that attended this small event had a good time, as
Copenhagen can be wonderful.

Blame for the stupid decision to create and
attempt to continue the Outgames on GLISA and those Montreal organizers who have
done so much harm to the gay athletic movement.

They should be ashamed of
themselves, and I'm pleased to see that they are finished misleading us.
LACharlie13   |76.95.203.xxx |2009-08-04 10:26:23
Every time a gay sports event fails, I shed a small internal tear for all
the hard work and eager aspirations that were wasted, and for
the healthy fun that did not happen. I am so grateful that people like
Kevin Boyer and Roberto Mantaci throw themselves into efforts for the
common good I only cherish my kitty Boris more!
Gene Dermody  - So what 's next?   |68.36.219.xxx |2009-08-05 07:37:31
I also was in CopenHagen for 4 days and
I concur with Jim's statements.
But I fear his implied misperception that World OutGames (WOGs)
brings 'something of value' to 'merge' into the GayGames.
There is nothing in WOGs but stolen duplication... e.g... GayGames has had conferences
focused on sports in many past GayGames. The issue is
(mis)placed emphasis, cost, and focus.
GLISA should just drop the WOGs. GayGames is the only genuine LGBT event run by athletes for athletes.. not
co-opted by redeployed Pride & Tourism people.
Alex Beal  - Copenhagen and GLISA did a great job   |24.103.191.xxx |2009-08-05 10:06:08
I'm American and attended the full week in Copenhagen and had a fantastic time.
I medalled in Beach Volleyball and Squash. I also attended the Montreal games.
I would repeat both experiences all over again if I could. Copenhagen and GLISA
did a great job organizing these games and bringing much needed visiblity to the
issue of GLBT sports. They should be congratulated not criticized.

Can the
global GLBT community support two global sport and culture events? Probably not
- so a merger makes sense. I'd ask the Gay Games organizers, however, to think
about the inclusiveness of their brand vs "World OutGames". "Gay
Games" omits elements of our community that need to be included in the
brand.
Gene Dermody  - Can you list some explicit recommendations?   |68.36.219.xxx |2009-08-06 04:11:43
Alex...
You have experienced what many of us experienced many times in GayGames
since 1982. It is no different from your exhilaration. But our own individual
experiences are not enough to validate the existence of the World OutGames
(WOGs). The harm being done in diluting the critical mass of athletes needed by
our LGBT athletic events overrides our individual personal experiences. We all
had great expereinces IF we could afford to go.
I appreciate that you are a
generic true believer, so give us some explicit recommendations where GayGames
has fallen short in including a part of the community. As someone deeply
involved in this, I cannot think of any.
There is this word 'Games' in both
World Outgames and GayGames, so I believe it should focus on athletics. So do
you mean more conferences? more culture? more Pride events? Thanks
Alex Beal  - Explicit recommendations   |24.103.191.xxx |2009-08-10 12:08:49
Hi Gene

I cannot comment on the programming needs of Gay Games (more
conferences, culture, etc).

My recommrendation is around the organization's
name and restriction to using just the "G" word of our LGBT community.
Perhaps it's addressed in various reports and studies you've done, but, as a
marketing executive, I would be concerned that use of only "gay" in the
title of the event is not inclusive.

Alot has changed since 1989 and the
adoption of "Federation of Gay Games" name. Many organizations have
rebranded since then to account for the changes and understanding of sexuality
and growth in our community. My specific recommendation is to change FGG's name
along those lines and not restrict to just "gay" in the
name.

best
Alex
Jim at Outsports   |99.22.220.xxx |2009-08-05 12:27:51
I want to be clear that I am not advocating anything (a merger, no merger), just
reporting what I have been hearing from athletes.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |93.178.189.xxx |2009-08-05 22:45:32
Dear Jim Buzinski and the rest of you

It was a shame, that we didn't meet
during your stay in Copenhagen the last week. Because there is so many questions
I would like to ask you.

Because I really can't understand the way you and
some of your colleagues from the US-LGBT-press have covered the Outgames event
here in Copenhagen.

Because the feedback from nearly all - if not all -
participants have been overwhelming positive. And that goes both for the sports
program, the cultural and artistic program and the human rights program.

In
Copenhagen we decided to open op the event for the whole city (the opening show
took place in the heart of the City in front of the City Hall) and we had great
queer artist from Melbourne, Rio, Mexico City, Tel Aviv and Aarhus to take over
all the squares in the inner city during the event.

So all in all everyone
loved the event.

And when it comes to numbers, there is a very interesting
difference in the way you in North America (US & Canada) are counting the
participants and the way we do it in Scandinavia.

As far as I know - at least
in Montreal - if you as a participant took part in both - lets say - football
and swimming, you counted for two persons.

Thats not the style in Scandinavian.
Here we only count participants person by person. And not how many sports
disciplines she or her took part in.

So even today I don't now how many there
really was in Montreal and even Chicago.

And thats also why we are more than
happy that we had over 5.500 participants here in Copenhagen, when we have the
financial crisis in mind.

When it comes to the future of the games - both Gay
Games and World Outgames - I agree that I would like to see the two events
coming together again.

And here in Copenhagen we had done all we could to
create a peaceful context around that question. We had our colleagues from Gay
Games in Cologne to visit all our sites so they could learn from us. And The
Federation of Gay Games had even a workshop at our Human Rights Conference.

If
any of you would like to look into our learning concerning how to pull off an
event like this, then read our final status report which cover all our work from
the start and all the way up to the event it self.

You find the report
here:

http://www.copenhagen2009.org/Media/~/media
/Media/Files/Facts/FinalStatusReportJun%202009.ash x

Let us all support all the
good work LGBT-people around the world do every living day. And let us not
create stupid enemy pictures of each other. Neither on Gay Games or Outgames.


All the best

Uffe
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |93.178.189.xxx |2009-08-05 23:06:05
(and here comes the rest of the text)...difference between the way you count
participants in the US and Canada, and the way we do it in Scandinavia.

As far
as I know - at least in Montreal - you as a participant were counted for two
persons if you both took part in football and lets say swimming.

This is not
the way we did in Copenhagen. Here the participants was only counted once - and
not by how many sports disciplines the person took part in.

So the day to day,
I really don't know how many people took part in either Montreal or Chicago.


And thats also why we are happy that more than 5.500 decided to come to
Copenhagen during the present financial crisis.

When it comes to the future of
the games, I also hope that Gay Games and Outgames will be become one big global
event again.

And we have done everything from our end to create a peaceful
context for this dialog. Our Gay Games colleagues from Cologne were in
Copenhagen to learn from us during the event. And even Federation of Gay Games
had a workshop at our Human Rights Conference.

So there is right now created a
positive platform for a realistic dialog about a common future between the two
boards of Gay Games and Outgames.

If any of you would like to look into what
it takes to pull an event like Outgames off, please read our final status
report, which cover the work process from the start and all the way up to the
event it self.

http://www.copenhagen2009.org/Media/~/media
/Media/Files/Facts/FinalStatusReportJun%202009.ash x

All the best

Uffe
uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |93.178.189.xxx |2009-08-05 23:14:45
hagen to learn from us and even The Federation of Gay Games had a workshop at
our Human Rights Conference.

So there is right now a window of opportunity that
the two boards of Gay Games and Outgames can start a realistic and peaceful
dialog about a common future.

If you want to look into what it takes to pull
off an event like Outgames, please read our final status report about the work
process from the start and up to the event it self.


http://www.copenhagen2009.org/Media/~/media/Medi
a/Files/Facts/FinalStatusReportJun%202009.ashx

An d then let us all support
good people doing good work, where ever they do it and in what ever organization
they are part of.

Walk with Peace

Uffe
Gene Dermody  - This is a serious discussion blog...   |68.36.219.xxx |2009-08-06 03:49:36
Uffe... please do not take offense. Those of us who were in CopenHagen have had
nothing but praise for the volunteers and organizers. I will mention Ole &
Kristofferson especially. The issues addressed in this blog are about how World
OutGames (WOGs) is diluting the critical mass of LGBT athletics and destroying
the opportunites for smaller LGBT sports to survive. Of course will all have
had great experiences, and that can especially be said of all GayGames as well,
so this drumbeat of great personal experiences misses the point of the
discussion and is not a valid reason to validate having a WOGs.
I am sorry to
hear that Montreal double counted athletes, but I suspected as much. As the
person who worked closely with Sydney's & Chicago's data bases, I can assure
everyone that GayGames NEVER double counted in its registration#s.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO   |62.135.144.xxx |2009-08-07 10:19:53
Hi Gene - I totally follow you, when it comes to the questions raised concerning
the future of the games. And as you can read out of all my past comments here at
this website, I'm very much supporter of getting the two games together
again.

But it takes an two dance. So lets see if the two board want to dance
with each other. I hope so. And both GLISA and Copenhagen have welcomed the
participants from Gay Games just one week ago.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Ougames 2009   |62.135.144.xxx |2009-08-07 10:23:27
....but my comment yesterday focused on the way the event in Copenhagen have
been presented for the reader. And Outsports are even in the positive end of the
spectrum.

If I read what Bay Area Report and the other papers connect with
them, I have a feeling that we are not living on the same planet:-)

And I
think, that this will not created anything good for anyone to create a negative
framing about something which was a great event for the people attending.

Uffe
Gene Dermody  - There needs to be balanced reporting...   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-07 15:04:19
Uffe...
There has been so much positive press about Copenhagen that I doubt
that 2-3 more 'critical' American columns make any difference. I am determined
that the facts of your own Copenhagen Secrtariat Report get out to the LGBT
Athletes so that proper political pressure and perception are built around FACTS
not EMOTIONS. It was this total lack of balanced reporting in 2006 that allowed
GLISA to move so easily off a $5mil deficit to Copenhagen without -any-
scrutiny.
rbrigham   |71.139.28.xxx |2009-08-07 22:21:26
As the author of the B.A.R. coverage on the Outgames, let me go on record
that I have heard people have nothing but praise for the organization
of the Copenhagen event, a wonderful time in the city, and spirit of good
sportsmenship from their fellow athletes.

At the same time, they have
noted the decreased numbers which particularly hurt the smaller sports and
have remarked on the high cost of the events, and of course
international single sports have talked about the burden of trying to
support two quadrennial multisport global events. And for those who
were able to afford to go, I am, sure they wish that efforts and resources
were channeled into one event rather than two so that others who can
not so easily afford to go will have a rounder more international feeling
when they do go.

Any negativity I feel is not directed toward
Copenhagen Outgames; it is toward the imperial impulse of GLISA to decide
in 2004 to go forward with an event in 2013, undoing the precarious
balance of the LGBT sports calendar.

My thoughts as a sports
activist (rather than reporter or columnist) are contained in the WWB
position paper, which has been published on
http://www.lgbtsportsfuture.wordpress.com
rogerb  - continuing....   |71.139.28.xxx |2009-08-07 22:27:35
Any negativity I feel is not directed toward Copenhagen Outgames
organizers, whom I think did far better than could be expected under
very trying circumstances and a tough economy. Hats off!

My distress
is with the imperiousness with which GLISA decided in March 2004 to hold a
second World Outgames, existing LGBT sports calendar be damned. I do
NOT think it represented the collective will of LGBT athletes nor do I
think in the long run has it served those athletes.

As for my
thoughts as a sports organizer, they are summarized in the WWB position
paper, which has been published at
http://lgbtsportsfuture.wordpress.com/position-...
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 01:08:06
Dear good outsports-blog-friends...I want to thank you all for the positive
feedback you all have on the event in Copenhagen.

It really warms my, my staff
and the 1800 volunteers hearts...I can tell you:-)

But when I read through the
different comments, I see a interesting pattern or/and critical issues, which
need a further dialog and discussion:
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 01:13:28
1) Is it possible to have two high class global LGBT-events running side by
side?

In my opinion - with my experience from both the event in Copenhagen and
the upcoming event in Cologne - this will not be possible on the long run.

The
high quality level in Copenhagen was only possible because of a very strong and
committed support from the City of Copenhagen. And I don't think this will be
the case many other places than in Scandinavia/North Europe/North America. Sorry
to say this - but thats the hard facts.
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 01:17:02
That's also why my conclusion is very clear: I hope that the board of GLISA and
the board of FGG would sit down together and in a peaceful manner figure out how
the two organization could become one again.

Because both organization has its
positive and negative sides - but if they are aware of this, and respect each
others potentials - I honestly think they could create a very powerful
LGBT-organization.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 01:22:31
And now I come to my second question:

2) I don't think either FGG or GLISA have
any future if they only focus on the sports. Or more specific: If they only
focus on the sports, the games will be seen on as a closed ghetto-event only for
LGBT-people with no relevance for the rest of the society.

That was why we in
Copenhagen put the Human Rights aspect right in front (through the the day human
rights conference), and that was why we created a high quality queer cultural
and artistic program whit could be seen as a bridge to the citizen of Copenhagen
but also to the rest of the LGBT-community
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 01:35:21
And then - of course - a well organized and well run sports-program. A sports
program organized in close cooperation with the local LGBT-sports organizations
but also with the mainstream sports organization.

I honestly think that if you
don't have the human rights as the core of the event, the culture and art as the
bridge building element to the rest of society and a high class sports program
organized in close cooperation with both the local LGBT sports organization AND
the mainstream sports organization, then the games will be history in 5 or 10
years time.

And that goes for Gay Games as well for the Outgames. Sorry to say
this - but that is my conclusion after working with this project for the last
three years.

I'm leaving my position as the CEO of Outgames in three weeks
time, And have already said to our good colleagues in Cologne, that I hope that
they will read very careful our final status report, because there is a lot of
learning from the event in Cpenhagen - an event I'm so damn proud of, because it
ended up in a big serious and warmhearted LGBT-event which was not a closed
party for the few, but a open party for the many.

All the best

Uffe
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 01:36:28
.. lot of learning from the event in Cpenhagen - an event I'm so damn proud of,
because it ended up in a big serious and warmhearted LGBT-event which was not a
closed party for the few, but a open party for the many.

All the best

Uffe
Roberto Mantaci  - You should look at history first   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-08 01:48:04
Uffe,
The Gay Games have never focused only in sports, as you can see looking
at the pragram of all Gay Games from 1982 to nowadays.
The Gay Games were never
"a closed ghetto-event only for LGBT-people with no relevance for the rest
of the society", because you do not need a full fledged human rights
conference to make a statement in the field human rights.
You should also read
my recent posts on the Outsports forum and the white paper "The Image of Gay
Games" and you would realize that the FGG has always said that conferences
can have their place at the Gay Games as long as the host organization does not
have to bear all the costs and the burden to produce it.
Roberto Mantaci  - you should look at history first (Pt.2)   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-08 01:56:13
If GLISA wants to continue to duplicate what already exists (there are many
organizations whose mission is to produce human right conferences) and continue
to make the same mistakes the old Gay Games hosts made when they tried to
produce a festval that included a bit of everything, it is their choice, but I
do hope the Gay Games will not have to reproduce that path of failure again.

You are also mistaken if you think that the OutGames are the first to establish
bridges and collaborations with mainstream sport organizations. The Gay Games
have done that for many many years by now.
uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 01:58:14
Dear Roberto - I totally know, that the Gay Games both have had culture and
human rights as part of the program. And I know, that there has been wonderful,
wonderful Gay Games event in the past (as well next year in Cologne!).

But I
have still my doubts concerning the balance between the three different program
building blocks. And I also think this is a very hot question both for the Gay
Games and GLISA, because it raise the question on the core identity of the event
it self.

It the games a human rights event? A cultural event? Or first of all a
sports event? I know this is dangerous area to step into - because that there is
so much emotion connected to the history of both Gay Games and Outgames.

But I
was a board-member of either Gay Games or GLISA I would put this questions on
the agenda on the next board meeting.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-08 02:03:39
To all of you - sorry that my spelling is a bit strange from time to time...but
I'm writing a bit fast these days:-)

But I hope you get my overall opinion/view
on the future of the games:-)???

And I also hope, that I get my message
through: That the only thing I'm working for is supporting good people making
good work in and out of the LGBT-community.

All the best

Uffe
Roberto Mantaci  - We already did that   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-08 02:24:14
Dear Uffe,
the FGG took full awareness of the problem you raise (define the
core indentity of the event) many years ago. This was the main task of the FGG
Strategic planning committee in 2002-2003 and the result of that work is...
"The Image of Gay Games" white paper, which is the result of a long and
careful process keeping into account the feedback of thousands of Gay Games
participants, of previous Gay Games host and of the experience and the expertise
of the many LGBT leaders that compose the FGG board.

I hope that the FGG will
not be forced by third parties to annihilate all that precious work that went
in that process and have Gay Games hosts start dispersing their resources
again.

I strongly suggest that you read that paper.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |93.178.161.xxx |2009-08-08 05:15:09
Dear Roberto - of course I will read the paper - actually I'm looking forward to
read the paper:-) It is always good to reflect together, so you don't get
trapped in your own world view.

Because my life have learned me, that the truth
is not inside me or you - both somewhere in a place between us.

All the best
here from Copenhagen

Uffe
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2000   |93.178.161.xxx |2009-08-08 05:16:22
....I mean:

Because my life have learned me, that the truth
is not inside me or
you - BUT somewhere in a place between us.

U
Gene Dermody  - Not everything can be compromised   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-08 05:35:03
Uffe... It must be generational, because I do not believe all debates require
compromise/resolution. GLISA & World Out Games (WOGs) brings nothing to the
table to be merged into GayGames. To assume that we must adopt this new
refocusing on conferences and culture when both events feature the word 'Games'
in their Brand is ludicrous. Even if I agreed with this, it is certainly not
reason enough to continue 2 events. Gay Games is run by the Athletes for the
Athletes. It achieves the political goals of a Pride or Cultural/Conference
event in a vastly more effective way... by playing sport. That is the power,
not in subjugating Sport to the Pride, Conference & Tourism organizers.
Gene Dermody  - Reality Check on OutSourcing the Sports   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-08 05:55:40
Uffe... LGBT sports organizers like IGLA worked for YEARS in the FGG to
establish rules that were more in line with our mission -and- to earn the respect/sanctioning of their mainstream sports sanctioning
organizations. This must continue under LGBT auspices in the
FGG because many mainstream sports organizations do NOT have
non-discrimination clauses, and impose HIV insensitive drug
testing/transgendered policies. The FGG has had years of success
in changing the policies of these mainstream organizations. This
crucial policy development does not exist in GLISA which just outsources
the event. E.g... CopenHagen promised some nebulous drug testing to
satisfy the government. It (thankfully) did not happen. Was it all just
high level lip service to the LGBT & Danish sports organizations?
What if the mainstream sports organization had demanded a drug test on some
HIV athlete? You cannot honestly answer this because there was really
no underlying detailed drug testing operations policy for CopenHagen. It
is these kinds of 'holes' in the WOGs model that are unacceptable for
our community.
Gene Dermody  - Reality Check on OutSourcing the Sports II   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-08 05:58:35
[ continued]... What if the mainstream sports organization had demanded a
drug test on some HIV athlete? You cannot honestly answer this
because there was really -no- underlying detailed drug testing operations policy for CopenHagen ever
written (and we asked for it many times). It is these kinds of
'holes' in the WOGs model that are unacceptable risks for our
community.
rogerb   |71.139.28.xxx |2009-08-08 06:18:14
Uffe,

The paper Roberto refers to is available on the
www.lgbtspportsfuture.wordpress.com website, which is an open public forum to
discuss this issue. I would strongly urge you to state your case there for a
wider audience to respond to.

I am glad you are articulating your views and
appreciate your passion. But I believe you are coming into the discussion about
the proper 'balance' rather late; as Roberto mentioned, the FGG platform the
Image of Gay Games was adopted not in a vaccuum, but very transparently
following the information provided by the Amsterdam and Sydney Gay Games and the
polling of athleets as to what they want and would enthusiastically support.

I
would argue that what WOGs 1 and 2 show us is it is not enough to have a strong
host. A continuing agency must bring a lot to the table, and as indicated by the
final Copenhagen report, the promised contacts simply weren't there for
Copenhagen to draw on. After adopting the Image paper, the FGG focused in
2003-06 on retooling itself to fascilitate enhanced representation.
rogerb  - continuing...   |71.139.28.xxx |2009-08-08 06:19:29
I would argue that what WOGs 1 and 2 show us is it is not enough to have a
strong host. A continuing agency must bring a lot to the table, and as indicated
by the final Copenhagen report, the promised contacts simply weren't there for
Copenhagen to draw on. After adopting the Image paper, the FGG focused in
2003-06 on retooling itself to fascilitate enhanced representation.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.146.xxx |2009-08-08 11:13:05
Hi all - just for clarification, we decided to be very transparent about our
work process. Also because we had in mind, that we wanted everyone - whoever it
could be - to have a change to look "backstage".

If you do this, you
also open of for the misuse of the information. And we knew that our very honest
comment concerning the relationship to the brand-owner, GLISA, could be misused
in the present debate pro vs. contra Gay Games.

But we believe in honesty...all
the way! And we had and still have a very honest dialog with the GLISA-board.
About both the light and the dark side in the relationship.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of Outgames   |93.178.146.xxx |2009-08-08 11:19:07
And I'm quite sure, that our good colleagues in Cologne have experienced the
same kind of issues in their relationship with their brand-owner, FGG.

As an
loyal LGBT- "outsider" I honestly think that both FGG and GLISA have to
look into their own organizations (which I also think is the case at the
moment) and ask what have we learned from the divorce-process?

Because I think
something good is able to come out of this very vulnerable situation. FGG have
learn something. And GLISA have learned something.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.146.xxx |2009-08-08 11:26:06
...and right now - because of the good relationships between Copenhagen and
Cologne - there is a window open for a possible positive dialog between the two
boards.

So lets hope "some one" in both organization will be
responsible enough to give the other a call:-)...and say: Lets sit down an start
a open dialog about a common future.

This is my hope.

Especially after the
very successful event in Copenhagen, where participants from 98 different
nations "came out"....so it was really the world that came out in
Copenhagen...and not only us from North America, North Europe and Australia/New
Zealand.

Uffe
Leland Wykoff   |69.85.104.xxx |2009-08-08 20:40:13
Weak organizational structures are much to blame for competing Games. Going back
to Gay Games New York I was shocked by the lack of administrative oversight by
the governing body.

Cultural events did not end on time--thus folks were late
or missed other obligations--the never ending ceremonies at Yankee Stadium was
an excellent example.

It was impossible to make a financial gift or donation
to the games, at the games. No address was published for the umbrella
organization--not even in the San Francisco Gay Yellow Pages.

Opportunities,
such as the Yankee Stadium events, to raise money were simply neglected. No
appeal. No way to give.

As to the purpose of the Games, Cultural? Sports?
Conferences? Outreach? Inreach? Pride? Arts? These are questions much larger
than issues of "Brands" or brand ownership.

One thing is clearer, the
world can not long sustain two major international gay sporting events. It is do
or die time. Get to the table and work out a solution. Or shrivel on the
vine.

For a history of what can happen to strong community organizations doing
incredibly valuable work when weak boards, visionaries, and management fail
simply look at the Southeastern Conference for Lesbians and Gay Men.

The world
benefits from gay sports and the "Games." A penalty flag is on the
field. Show good sportsmanship and work it out. For the good of the game. For
the greater good.

Let us cheer the leadership teams to the championship!
BerndNYC   |74.66.251.xxx |2009-08-09 16:30:15
Uffe:
Copenhagen was a great event! Well organized, great locations, great
spirit!
Thanks for that to you and your great team.
------
I also believe there
should be one LGBT sports event and not two. However, there needs to be some
compromise. The arrogant attitude of the FGG representatives on this blog shows
the problems pretty clearly. Of course GLISA and the WOG made a contribution and
have experiences to contribute, how can the FGG say they have done nothing.

And
it looks to me that Gay Games were no longer an event "for athletes made by
athletes", but an event were some non-athlete officials could play
International Gay Olympic Committee with embroidered jackets and all. That was
one of the reasons why there was a split.

I hope everybody gets back on the
same page, but that might require some change in attitude on both sides.
Gene Dermody  - Speaking Facts is not Arrogance   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-09 18:48:43
Bernd ...Your emotional reaction (I had a good time!) adds nothing but
illustrates the real problem, ignorance of the facts. If you read any of the
above thread you should have at least come up with ONE GLISA contribution that
GayGames has not already addressed years ago. Your IOC jackets reference is pure
fiction and illustrates again more of this myth. The truth cannot be
'arrogant', but it can 'hurt', and I suspect that is what fuels these emotional
statements. Read their own Copenhagen Secretariat Report!
Gene Dermody  - Yes The FGG has reorganized since 1994   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-09 19:01:30
Leland... I can agree with some of your observations, especially the cutural
operational, but only up to a point, and perhaps I am misreading you. Complaing
about fundraising/marketing efforts in 1990-1994 when few had email, internet,
and there was no PayPal is a stretch. I do not believe we could have
successfully solicited donations from our constituents with more glossy magazine
$marketing ads. Most of us were staying 4 to a room in NYC, not looking to make
big donations. We did commission mainstream agencies, and we can discuss those
results outside this thread. The problem is way more complex than just placing
ads.
Roberto Mantaci  - You should not spread hoaxes   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-10 01:24:26
Bernd. This is just another hoax spread after M2006 schism. I even heard from a
Dutch athlete (who was to become an EGLSF officer) who was told that the FGG
officials were just a “bunch of Americans” who pretended to manage the Gay
Games from the couch in their living rooms.

The FGG board is mostly composed by
athletes who, after spending hours daily working for the organization often go
to their respective sport facilities and train for their own sports (or
vice-versa).

At the Sydney Gay Games, despite my obligations as co-president ,
I did not scratch any of my five swimming events, with overall decent times.
Charlie Carson swam and medaled (in a very competitive age group!). Kathleen
Webster and Teresa Galetti played their martial arts, held clinics and refereed
some events. Gene Dermody wrestled and coached. Emy Ritt sailed her boat. Laura
Moore skated on the ice. What do you want more?

What I find fascinating is that
nobody has the same concern for many of the individuals who really pulled the
threads in Montréal and who decided it was good to have two competing event,
who were not athletes and had never participated in any event like the Gay Games
or the Eurogames.

IMHO, the reasons why there was the split are very simple.
The supervision of an organization run by volunteer athletes like the FGG was
an annoyance for the interests and objectives of those groups.

You can’t
either swipe under the carpet two determinant causes for the creation of the
WOG: 1) Montréal needed a brand to avoid to be seen as a once-only event and 2)
some other groups had interests in hosting a large event and found more
convenient to facilitate the creation of a new one rather than “going in
line” through a more selective process like the one for the Gay Games. Without
those agendas at that point in time, we would not have the WOG now.

I am NOT
saying that the individuals currently involved with GLISA and the OutGames have
the same agendas today.
Roberto Mantaci  - You should not spread hoaxes   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-10 01:26:20
What I find fascinating is that nobody has the same concern for many of the
individuals who really pulled the threads in Montréal and who decided it was
good to have two competing event, who were not athletes and had never
participated in any event like the Gay Games or the Eurogames.

IMHO, the
reasons why there was the split are very simple. The supervision of an
organization run by volunteer athletes like the FGG was an annoyance for the
interests and objectives of those groups.

You can’t either swipe under the
carpet two determinant causes for the creation of the WOG: 1) Montréal needed a
brand to avoid to be seen as a once-only event and 2) some other groups had
interests in hosting a large event and found more convenient to facilitate the
creation of a new one rather than “going in line” through a more selective
process like the one for the Gay Games. Without those agendas at that point in
time, we would not have the WOG now.

I am NOT saying that the individuals
currently involved with GLISA and the OutGames have the same agendas today.
Roberto Mantaci  - You should not spread hoaxes   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-10 01:28:14
Without those agendas at that point in time, we would not have the WOG now.

I
am NOT saying that the individuals currently involved with GLISA and the
OutGames have the same agendas today.
Gene Dermody  - We must keep the pressure on for FACTS   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-10 09:53:05
What I am always amazed at is this very Kumbaya statement that we should not
revisit the past (i.e.. the Montreal walkout), and we should move on. No! We
must constantly put out the FACTS and we must constantly protest these blatant
myths propagated by these mindless emotional types. We must not permit more of
this Brand stealing hoax to continue. Thankfully there is now a growing Truth
Squad directly confronting these absurd posts here and everywhere, and judging
by the squeals, it is working. e.g.. We now ALL agree a single quadrennial is
desirable. Progress!
Tony Jasinski  - GLISA was a mistake and a reaction   |151.151.98.xxx |2009-08-12 07:04:31
GLISA is a joke that should just go away. Though I appreciate the efforts of
the Copenhagen volunteers, the second Outgames was just really a renamed
Eurogames in scope and size.

There is no reason to merge an inept and weak
organization with the Gay Games. The Gay Games are the legitimate leaders in
the gay community and GLISA offered nothing unique for our athletes and their
supporters. They only existed as some dissenters who dissagreed with some minor
decisions.
uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |93.178.161.xxx |2009-08-13 06:33:30
Dear Tony - how can I take the rest of your statements serious if you really
mean that World Outgames 2009 in Copenhagen was just another Europgames?

I
don't know if you attended? But there was 98 different nations represented at
the games. So it was really the whole world, which came out in Copenhagen.

AS
some of the other writers on this blog have said: Please use the momentum to
start a dialog between Gay Games and GLISA.

Because there is only a need of
one global LGBT-event every fourth year. And both parties have something to
offer.

All the best

Uffe
Gene Dermody  - Misplaced Emphasis   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-13 07:46:49
Uffe.. With all due respect... Every GayGames since 1982, all 7, have exceeded
98 nations. Nothing new here. The Copenhagen registration# of ~4k athletes is a
less than an Antwerp or Barcelona EuroGames registration. Please understand
this is not about criticizing CopenHagen's efforts. It is about propping up
GLISA as setting some sort of new standard when none exists. This is a debate
about what GLISA brings to the table... NADA.
BTW, Tony Jasinski is a legend in
LGBT Basketball, and we would not have the incredible teams we have today if he
had not stepped up in 1982. Please try and be specific with what GLISA offers
in this so called merger? They have stolen from GayGames, they have tried to
steal a Brand, they totally outsource the sports to mainstream organizations,
and they are destroying 'critical mass'. PLEASE lets be specific and not be so
kumbaya.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |87.51.2.xxx |2009-08-14 04:00:33
Of course GLISA have a lot to bring to the table. If I have ever had any doubts
about that before, I'm have no doubts anymore after the level - or not level -
in this discussion.

All people have something to bring to the table. All
organizations have something to bring to the table. So of course GLISA have
something to bring to the table. In the same way Gay Games have something to
bring to the table.

Please check this link out...and be a little happy about
what you hear and see:

http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Looking_back_
at_the_World_Outgames-7305.a
spx
Gene Dermody  - Thank for making my point   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-14 05:51:21
Uffe... We are finally getting to the meat of this debate with fluff XTRA Link.

1. John Amechi is an American BasketBall star who has been a GayGames
ambassador for YEARS now. GLISA hired him to speak. GLISA did not discover
him. There is NOTHING new here that indicates some GLISA contribution to
anything, either in content or format.
2. "Wrestling is a Hit"? Well
I just wrote a wrestling report for Copenhagen/GLISA on the wrestling, having
been asked by Ayoe Buhl, and I was as positive as I could be. I was there as
WWB rep (one of the sanctioning bodies). They had 7 wrestlers for this huge
international tournament. And while I respect the individual wrestlers who
perservered in this debacle, the matches were not safely paired, and one
wrestler fractured his hand. GayGames usually gets > 100-160 wrestlers. WOG
Montreal 2002 had ~20 wrestlers.
Just these few facts make my point about the
mindless pro-GLISA hype and the biased Canadian XTRA media still trying to
resurrect the legitimacy of Montreal 2002 and GLISA as 'relevent' when in
actuality, they are the problem.
Please keep the data coming so we can educate
our readers.
Gene Dermody  - Thanks for making my point II   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-14 05:57:04
[continued]... Just these few facts make my point about the
mindless pro-GLISA
biased reporting.
Please keep the data coming se we can educate our readers.

I ask again, what does GLISA bring to the table that it should be merged into
the GayGames? Thus far, NADA. So far Alex Beal thinks GayGames is too narrow a
term and wants something like the LGBTXYZQBT Games. A valid point worth
debating, but IMHO impractical and politically marginal, otherwise Gay.com would
have changed their Brand.
Tony Jasinski  - OutGames   |151.151.7.xxx |2009-08-14 14:01:14
I wasn't expecting Gene to offer some praise for me, but I understand that 8
teams participated in basketball in the Outgames. That number is much smaller
than our regional tournaments.

In fact, I wonder if that is less teams than
would typically participate in the Eurogames?

You might be right that the
comparison is unfair. The Eurogames might be bigger....

(I'm certain that
the Outgames was very enjoyable for good numbers of people. But the Outgames
are done, and need to be part of the past. There is no need to continue them,
nor does GLISA represent anything unique to carry forward.)
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.161.xxx |2009-08-16 04:24:45
Dear all - it is impossible to have a open minded dialog, if the counterpart
don't want to have open minded dialog.

I have in all my comments been very
outspoken about my respect for The Gay Games and the history behind the event.


And that was why it was very important for us here in Copenhagen to have a
good and trustful relationship with out colleagues in Cologne. And all what we
have heard from Cologne is, that they have been very happy about attending the
World Outgames in Copenhagen - because there was a lot to learn from and good
ideas to take back to Cologne.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.161.xxx |2009-08-16 04:30:59
Personally I have attended two Eurogames. One small Eurogames in Antwerpen and
one big in Barcelona. And even they were great events - and they were - the
World Outgames event in Copenhagen was in a league of its own.

So of course
Outgames and GLISA has some important insights to bring to the table, when it
comes to the discussion and dialog about the future for global LGBT events.


The big question is, if there is a need for a global LGBT-event with only
sports on the agenda. Or if the agenda and focus should have a broader view (as
in the World Outgames).
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.161.xxx |2009-08-16 04:40:00
My hope - as I have said many times before in this blog-dialog - is, that Gay
Games Federation and GLISA would come together again as one organizational
body.

But I also honestly think that if there should be a positive future -both
economically and content wise - for a successful global LGBT event you have to
have a broader view than only LGBT-sports.

And thats where GLISA/World
Outgames Copenhagen has something very important to bring to the table.

That
was at least what I understund from my dialog with my colleagues in Cologne.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of Wold Outgames 2009   |93.178.161.xxx |2009-08-16 04:43:16
I will stop writing now..because I'm starting to repeat my self. And thats
boring for everyone.

So I'm checking out now. And just hope for the very best
for everyone doing good stuff in the global LGBT-community.

Uffe
Gene Dermody  - Well sorry to see you go..   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-16 07:27:45
Uffe.. This is not a personal vendetta. it is a calm debate about what GLISA
offers the LGBT sports calendar. We agree one ONE international quadrennial,
but we do not agree on what GLISA brings to the table to be afforded any
credibility in a 'merger', other than a confusing distraction. As long as no
one can point to facts instead of more kumbaya, many of us who devoted our lives
to LGBT sports are not impressed or willing to give up the fight. Please gives
us specifics where WOGs brings something different to the mix?
Gene Dermody  - Well sorry to see you go...II   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-16 07:35:13
IMHO, it is incredibly important that in this cycle we do not let these FACTS go
unnoticed:
1. GLISA is the product Of Montreal 2006's attempt to legitimize
themselves after they walked out of negotiations with the FGG.
2. Montreal went
bust to ~$5mil as predicted by the FGG when they demanded budget
adjustements.
3. Even if Montreal had added ALL of Chicago's athletes to their
registration, they still would have lost ~$2mil. So it was not the FGG that
caused Montreal's debacle... It was GLISA and Montreal.
4. GLISA's model
brings nothing new to these quadrennials. They even stole FGG data, FGG sports
operations docs, and tried to steal a 25 year old Brand,the GayGames.
Gene Dermody  - Well sorry to see you go... III   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-16 07:44:42
So as we move forward this time, there will be much more pressure from LGBT
city/sports organizations like Team Berlin/Vorspiel, Team San Francisco, Martial
Arts, Wrestling, BasketBall, etc.. that are on record now as not liking the
status quo. We all know that the WOG experiment has done more harm than good.
So why 'merge' with them? This time it will not be so easy to kumbaya a
mindless agreement with so many unquestionable FACTS out there.... especially
your own Copenhagen Secretariat report! There are many other media voices out
there now than in 2006 who are more honest who will carry the truth. Please
prove me wrong and gives us FACTS of what GLISA does to deserve a place a the
table? No one has yet.
Gene Dermody  - Hopefully we will see you in Koeln next month...   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-16 09:24:18
Uffe.. By you own admission, you have not attended any of the 7 GayGames since
1982, and you did not even attend WOGs Montreal 2006. So I can somewhat forgive
your ignorance of the FACTS. GayGames HAS always had some sort of Conference
event. It just is not the highlight GLISA wants it to be. GayGames has always
promoted and done Cultural events as part of regular registration. And the
final one, inclusion of Pride Events, well NYC 1994 GayGamesV was well coupled
with but clearly differentiated from StoneWall25. So if the issue is merely a
debate of event emphasis and NOT something new (which is my point), then why not
GLISA people STOP the WOGs, join the FGG, and work their emphasis agenda,
instead of negotiating event details from a position of an 'equal' in merging?
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.109.xxx |2009-08-17 00:11:39
Hi Gene - I know this is not a personal vendetta from your side. I take your
comments very serious. Believe me! The other way around I also hope, that you
hear me. Just to sum up:
• We both believe that one global LGBT-event every
worth year is the best structure.
• I deeply respect the "street
credibility" of the Gay Games history.

But I honestly also think, that the
GLISA-community have important learnings and thoughts to bring to the table if
the miracle would come, that The Federation og Gau Games and GLISA decided to
dit down and talk about a common future.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.109.xxx |2009-08-17 00:16:56
(sorry my spelling:-)

Why do I think this?

Because I over the last three
years, also have talked with loyal Gay Games people, who have told me about what
does NOT work between the local Gay Games organizers and the Federation of Gay
Games.

How come? If you are such a brilliant old organization?

And why did
the local organizers from Cologne come to Copenhagen to learn from how we did
the event? And why did they say, that there was SO much positive learning in
attending the World Outgames in Denmark?
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.109.xxx |2009-08-17 00:21:41
And yes Gene - there has been other conferences before the first
Outgames-conference in Montreal. But everyone who are working with human rights
issues agree that the first conference in Montreal made history. And the same
feedback is what we get from people attending the Outgames conference in
Copenhagen.

So something important have happened.

And the same goes with the
level of quality of the cultural program and even the way the sports program was
organized in Copenhagen.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.109.xxx |2009-08-17 00:28:14
And this is not something I'm only saying. This is something very loyal Gay
Games people are saying.
But the strange thing for me, is that they don't want
to say in public - but only in personal conversations.

What does this tell
you?

When we did our final status report, we had to be critical - both
internally and externally - because if not, we have not learned anything.

And
after the report came out, we had a deep and honest dialog with the board
members of GLISA. And there was a lot of self reflection around the table.


Because we can always do better, than we do now.

So Gene - please accept,
that what have happen at the first and second World Outgames have a value. If
you cant accept this, we just have to accept, that you are looking out of one
window and I'm looking out of another.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.109.xxx |2009-08-17 00:39:58
And one last comment: If Federation of Gay Games and GLISA are not able to
establish a respectful dialog about a common future of the games, I think that
both events will be history in five or ten years.

Why?

Because the world is
changing and so will the LGBT-community.

Federation of Gay Games was born in
San Francisco. With strong american roots (which I respect deeply!).

But even
if the Federation of Gay Games have many global members, it is still a very
american mindset who dominates the internal culture of FGG.

This is again
insights coming from the organization it self!!

But I deeply believe that the
future is global. And I deeply believe that the future is about dialog. And I
deeply believe the future is about bringing all good voices to the table.

And
from there we should create a respectful common future.

Uffe
Tony Jasinski  - Irritation   |151.151.73.xxx |2009-08-17 07:21:11
I continue to be quite irritated with the Outgames attempts to make the battle
between GLISA and the Federation to be a "European" versus American
issue. This is distressing, as there remains no one thing of value that GLISA
brings to the sports community. The Federation is a multinational organization
(yes, with American roots), and I have a close Australian friend on the Fed
board.

Uffe, congrats on your recent event, but it is time to close the door
on GLISA.

There will always be people with differing views, priorities,
stances... But GLISA is nothing but a dissenting organization with no
focus.

If there is something to be considered of value from GLISA, the way to
make progress is within the Federation.

Again, you only had 8 basketball
teams, and that shows what a minor sporting event it was....
Welcome Back Uffe..  - Shibboleths   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-17 11:10:27
Uffe... Thank you for coming back. The more we debate, the more the truth about
GLISA gets out on the internet. Your AmeroCentric charge is another myth. The
FGG has always had far more international Team and Sports organizational
support: http://www.gaygames.com/en/links/memberlinks.htm , and this list is
about 6 short of the most recently accepted ones from places like Manchester UK.
Dialog and involvement are always welcome, but the GayGames has a quater century
history, tradition, and BRAND. Why should it just cede it or merge it with an
upstart entity that just tried to steal it while bringing nothing to the table.
PLEASE be specific about what GLISA has to offer other than kumbaya rhetoric and
a history of negatively undermining the quadrennial choices. Sports expertise?
Hardly. Conferences? Culture? Been there down that. It is not me looking out a
different window. It is the LGBT Sports & City Teams who are finally stepping
forward.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 11:22:23
Hi all - please keep your head cool and your heart warm.

Tony - please read
your own text again: "....Again, you only had 8 basketball
teams, and that
shows what a minor sporting event it was...".

Come on...if basketball is
not a very north american sports discipline, I don't know:-) Maybe there was
not many basketball teams..but damn a lot of soccer teams (which is a very
european sport).

And so we can go on.....but what value will come out of that?
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 11:26:40
Lets have some facts on the table about the World Outgames Event in
Copenhagen:

• more than 5.500 people toke part (paid participants) in World
Outgames 2009. And they came from 98 different nations.

• there were 34
sports disciplines and more than 18000 starts.

• there were 303 different
cultural activities (OutCities cultural activities, exhibitions, parties etc
etc)

• at the human rights conference you had 24 key note speakers and 110
workshops

• the participants stayed in Copenhagen eight days (we had expected
five)

• on top of the 5.500 participants (to be exact there were 5.553), we
expect that there were more than 7.500 specific LGBT-turist, which came to
Copenhagen because of the Outgames.

• At the opening show there were more
than 25.000 people attending (beside all the Outgames-participants and their
friends also lots, lots of ordinary Copenhageners).

• All together more than
200.000 people toke part in the different Outgames cultural activities (the free
cultural programs in the streets of the inner city, the parties, the
exhibitions, the free sports workshops, the Run for Love and the closing event
together with Copenhagen Pride)

• Money wise we expect to come out either
neutral or with a little positive surplus. If there is a little surplus the turn
over goes to the local LGBT-community.

So the bottom line is: The World
Outgames was a smashing success.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 11:28:05
• All together more than 200.000 people toke part in the different Outgames
cultural activities (the free cultural programs in the streets of the inner
city, the parties, the exhibitions, the free sports workshops, the Run for Love
and the closing event together with Copenhagen Pride)

• Money wise we expect
to come out either neutral or with a little positive surplus. If there is a
little surplus the turn over goes to the local LGBT-community.

So the bottom
line is: The World Outgames2009 was a smashing success.
The sad thing is..  - The sad thing is..   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-17 11:28:14
The real tragedy of this is that we are debating with poor Uffe who did yeoman's
work in pulling Copenhagen through without the support he really needed from
GLISA (read Uffe's Copenhagen Secretariat Report). Where are the Montreal 2006
founders of GLISA? None to be found or involved after only a few years??
Contrast that with the dozens of GayGames people with dozens of years of service
like Roberto, Tony, Roger, et al... The new GLISA people like Uffe for the most
part have not been to any GayGames or even Montreal 2006(!), and they do not
want to debate the reason for the very existence of GLISA and the WOGs? This is
a tragedy that these people are so ill informed and now forced to defend the
indefensible without the facts. Of course it seems like a one-sided debate.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 11:40:54
You cant make an event like that, if there is not a need out there in the
LGBT-community.

And on top of that we want to share all what we have learned,
so the next in line can make an even better event. And the next in line is our
colleagues in Cologne.

As you know, we have even produced an internal
evaluation report which we already have shared with the team in Cologne - as
well with all others who would like to look into the backstage.

So show some
respect here.

I respect The Gay Games history. I respect my colleagues in
Cologne. I respect that one can see different on specific topics. But I don't
respect to be talked down to.

Nobody does that!
uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 11:51:22
I really don't believe this. The last comment on this blog was the following:
"..The real tragedy of this is that we are debating with poor
Uffe...".

Come on:-)

I'm not "poor Uffe" - How can you say this?
Do you really want a serious debate level??? Or what?? Or do you only want talk
to your self?

Just and idea: Why don't Outsports.com set up a double interview
with the co-presidents of GLISA and the counterpart in Federation of Gay
Games...and let them talk together.
uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 11:56:43
Let us see what they have on their minds? Let us see, what kind of leadership
they will present us for? Let us see, what both sides have learned.

Personally
I have hoped it was possible to have an open minded and open hearted dialog at
this blog. But after the last round of comments, I have to accept, that this is
not possible.

And that maybe says it all.

Over and out!

Uffe
Gene Dermody  - CopenHagen was a success, GLISA was not   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-17 11:56:53
Uffe.. Separate your points. Of course CopenHagen was a success as an EVENT. I
can do the SAME list of achievements for every GayGames and even OutGames as a
singular EVENT. But by your own words about Basketball being 'NorthAmerican'
(don't tell Autralia!), WOGs cannot lay claim any more to being an
'International' event if has to stop offerring 'NorthAmerican' events! BTW,
Wrestling, Martial Arts, IceSkating, and other sports were ridiculously low, are
they 'NorthAmerican' too? GayGames does not have this problem. So why a WOGs
when GLISA can really only offer a WOGs in Europe (Antwerp 2013?) again with
popular EuroSports. If it cannot be and 'International Quadrennial', then just
drop the whole GLISA WOGs pretense and end this debate. Let Antwerp 2013
rightfully be a EuroGames!
This is a very reasonable intelligent respectful
debate, so please don't cry victim.
uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 12:17:13
I don't cry victim....because I'm not a victim (what a strange statement??!!).


I'm the first to say, that I would have loved, that we had more teams coming
to Copenhagen.

But I honestly also think it had a lot to do with the financial
crisis. And this is not to blame the financial crisis for everything. But I
really think it had a huge in pact - because people just didn't had the money
for traveling this year.

And that is also why we are more happy about the
figures we had.

But with or without financial crisis around, I believe as I
had said many time before, that one global LGBT-event every fourth year is what
we should have.

And thats also why the best scenario would be, that Gay Games
and GLISA came together again. And that has been my motivation in the present
debate here at this blog all the way.

Maybe I was totally wrong in believing
this was possible.

It is now close to midnight here in Scandinavia...so I will
jump into my bed and kiss my boyfriend...and just after that...dream sweet
dreams about a better and more peaceful world...also between Gay Games and
GLISA:-)

Uffe
Gene Dermody  - You misread my post   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-17 12:19:19
Uffe... You misread the nuance of my post. I was defending you as not the person
who should be defending GLISA because you have so little vested history with
them. I am NOT representing the FGG. I represent Team San Francisco (TSF)
having been associated with them since their inception in 1987. TSF regularly
sends 1000 athletes (~10% of registration) to a GayGames. I also created
Wrestlers WithOut Borders in 1990 which has put on the GayGames wrestling since
1994. GLISA WOGs are destroying the critical mass of LGBT Athletes in the LGBT
quadrennial calendar. I am determined to stop it, and the proliferation of
non-athletic agendas in a GayGames. I have earned some right to have an opinion
because I have worked at building a very interested constituency, just like Tony
in BasketBall, et al Martial Arts, Team Berlin/Vorspiel, etc.. Please do not
read my posts as disrespectful, I am honored that someone in GLISA is finally
debating me.
uffe Elbæk   |93.178.139.xxx |2009-08-17 12:20:52
jump into my bed...where my boyfriend is waiting...we will
kiss....goodnight.....and then I will try to dream sweet dreams about a more
peacefull world...also between Gay Games and GLISA.

Because we deserve it. All
of us.

Uffe
Tony Jasinski  - Uffe vs.GLISA vs. Outgames   |76.200.190.xxx |2009-08-17 17:25:45
I'm pleased that you had such a good turnout in other sports. Best wishes to
you, and none of us disrespected your event.

Now, lets just put GLISA to bed,
or let it do something of value... Does the organization really still exist?
Gene Dermody  - Gotta keep you honest Uffe..   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-17 19:15:29
You say you want to reunite FGG and GLISA, but that implies an untruth.
Montreal 2006 walked out of negotiations with the FGG and created GLISA to
validate their new WOGs event that they were trying to steal from the FGG. GLISA
and GLISA people have never been a part of the FGG or GayGames. There is nothing
to reunite or even merge. That is the point of this debate. I cannot let that
lie continue to be put out in the media. We have taped minutes of all those
meetings. History matters.
Roberto Mantaci  - Thank you Uffe   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-18 02:26:06
I would like to acknowledge that Uffe has been a true gentleman for being so
willing to participate in this open debate. The transaprency shown by Copenhagen
with the the 92 page report is also refreshing.
Perhaps we should move the
discussion to another media?
There seems to be an intersting subjet in itself
about the merging and whether integrating HR conferences can be considered an
asset that GLISA brings to the table.
This media is not appropriaite because you
have to divide posts; perhaps www.lgbtsportsfuture.wordpress.com. would be more
better?
Roberto Mantaci  - New Article About Merging   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-18 20:59:06
For those who are interested, I wrote an article about the "merging"
that was published here :

http://lgbtsportsfuture.wordpress.com/the-merge
r-debate/

Roberto Mantaci, Former Co-President of the Federation of Gay Games,
2001-2006, Honorary Life Member of the Federation of Gay Games
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.97.xxx |2009-08-19 05:35:59
Dear Roberto - I was really touched by your response to me.

Thank you for
that!

And your reflection gave me hope (again). Because I deeply feel (and
know) that right now there is a window of opportunity for a serious dialog
between The Federation of Gay Games and GLISA.

As everyone knows, I'm stepping
down as CEO of World Outgames 2009 now, when the job has been done - and with
success:-)

But even if I am stepping down now, I'm still a big supporter for
the process towards only one global LGBT event every fourth year.

So lets
support each on this! And thank you again Roberto for your comments!

Uffe
LACHARLIE13   |76.95.203.xxx |2009-12-24 17:33:14
Gene and Roberto are heros of the gay sports movement - tremendous commitment
and dedication, great organizational memory, selflessness. Roberto is right to
remind us of the genesis of GLISA and WOG [rom the unforgettable greedhead junta
and its characteristic blend of corruption. incompetence, and
squishy-hold-hands-and-humkumbaya rights n'culture mumbo jumbo
Julia Applegate  - GLISA Co-President   |66.145.209.xxx |2009-08-19 07:45:23
With regards to recent international discussion regarding the future of the Gay
and Lesbian International Sport Association, the World Outgames, and the
relationship between the Federation of Gay Games and GLISA, GLISA International
would like to share the following information.

Questions have arisen
regarding the distinctions between the work of GLISA International and the FGG.
The distinctive work of GLISA can be described in terms of ‘four
pillars’:

The first pillar is GLISA’s mandate to nurture and grow LGBT
sport world-wide, year in and year out, through outreach, member services and
the sharing of knowledge and best practices among member organizations.
The
second pillar of GLISA is partnership with mainstream sport, human rights and
cultural organizations that share our mission to make all places safe for LGBT
athletes to play sport.
The third pillar of GLISA is the delivery of games.
These include world Outgames every four years and continental Outgames in
intervening years.
The fourth pillar of GLISA is the professionalization of
the LGBT sport movement. GLISA is committed to legacy in the form of transfer of
knowledge, innovation in the delivery of services, and professionalism in the
implementation of marketing and sponsorship strategies.

Regarding the future
of dialogue between GLISA International and the Federation of Gay
Games:

GLISA International has received input from our membership expressing
a variety of opinions about the future of global LGBT sport/culture/human rights
events. We have received input via a survey distributed to our membership, via
direct communication from several GLISA members (Team Berlin, European Same Sex
Dancing Association, etc), via participation in a workshop facilitated by the
Federation of Gay Games at the World Outgames in Copenhagen, and in several
other forums. While the range of opinions has been broad, the most common
opinion expressed to GLISA International is the desire of the LGBT sporting
community to have one global quadrennial event designed to serve the LGBT
community worldwide. Our members have expressed a strong desire to see this
event include sports, cultural and human rights elements on equal footing and to
support the growth of LGBT sport, culture, and human rights events on the
continental level in intervening years. To this end, our members have asked
GLISA International to engage in a dialogue with the Federation of Gay Games to
explore options that will meet these objectives. The first of these talks will
take place in Brussels on August 29th, 2009. GLISA International is committed
to transparency and to responding in the best way possible to the desires of our
members. GLISA International is therefore open to engaging in a dialogue with
the Federation of Gay Games about the future of quadrennial LGBT
games.

Please direct questions to Julia Applegate
(julia.applegate@gmail.com) or Wessel van Kampen (wessel0101@gmail.com).
Julia Applegate   |66.145.209.xxx |2009-08-19 07:46:10
These include world Outgames every four years and continental Outgames in
intervening years.
The fourth pillar of GLISA is the professionalization of
the LGBT sport movement. GLISA is committed to legacy in the form of transfer of
knowledge, innovation in the delivery of services, and professionalism in the
implementation of marketing and sponsorship strategies.

Regarding the future
of dialogue between GLISA International and the Federation of Gay
Games:

GLISA International has received input from our membership expressing
a variety of opinions about the future of global LGBT sport/culture/human rights
events. We have received input via a survey distributed to our membership, via
direct communication from several GLISA members (Team Berlin, European Same Sex
Dancing Association, etc), via participation in a workshop facilitated by the
Federation of Gay Games at the World Outgames in Copenhagen, and in several
other forums. While the range of opinions has been broad, the most common
opinion expressed to GLISA International is the desire of the LGBT sporting
community to have one global quadrennial event designed to serve the LGBT
community worldwide. Our members have expressed a strong desire to see this
event include sports, cultural and human rights elements on equal footing and to
support the growth of LGBT sport, culture, and human rights events on the
continental level in intervening years. To this end, our members have asked
GLISA International to engage in a dialogue with the Federation of Gay Games to
explore options that will meet these objectives. The first of these talks will
take place in Brussels on August 29th, 2009. GLISA International is committed
to transparency and to responding in the best way possible to the desires of our
members. GLISA International is therefore open to engaging in a dialogue with
the Federation of Gay Games about the future of quadrennial LGBT
games.

Please direct questions to Julia Applegate
(julia.applegate@gmail.com) or Wessel van Kampen (wessel0101@gmail.com).
Julia Applegate   |66.145.209.xxx |2009-08-19 07:47:00
other forums. While the range of opinions has been broad, the most common
opinion expressed to GLISA International is the desire of the LGBT sporting
community to have one global quadrennial event designed to serve the LGBT
community worldwide. Our members have expressed a strong desire to see this
event include sports, cultural and human rights elements on equal footing and to
support the growth of LGBT sport, culture, and human rights events on the
continental level in intervening years. To this end, our members have asked
GLISA International to engage in a dialogue with the Federation of Gay Games to
explore options that will meet these objectives. The first of these talks will
take place in Brussels on August 29th, 2009. GLISA International is committed
to transparency and to responding in the best way possible to the desires of our
members. GLISA International is therefore open to engaging in a dialogue with
the Federation of Gay Games about the future of quadrennial LGBT
games.

Please direct questions to Julia Applegate
(julia.applegate@gmail.com) or Wessel van Kampen (wessel0101@gmail.com).
Julia Applegate   |66.145.209.xxx |2009-08-19 07:47:44
Federation of Gay Games about the future of quadrennial LGBT games.

Please
direct questions to Julia Applegate (julia.applegate@gmail.com) or Wessel
van Kampen (wessel0101@gmail.com).
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames 2009   |85.129.81.xxx |2009-08-19 09:54:34
Hi Julia - so good to hear your voice in this blog-dialog.

I'm happy that
GLISA are coming out so clear and strong in your statements concerning a serious
dialog with The Federation of Gay Games.

This is maybe a small step for the two
organizations, but a big step for the global LGBT-community.

So thank you for
that!

And this is by the way totally in the line of the good relationship and
cooperation there has been between Outgames Copenhagen and Gay Games Cologne.


So I'm happy:-)

Uffe
Roberto Mantaci  - We need FACTS, not words   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-19 20:50:12
Hello Julia,

it is good to have finally someone from GLISA willing to
participate in the debate.

However, I think you have to be kidding with your
post. This is a serious forum, some readers are LGBT sports leaders and have
clearly shown that they want facts, not words. You are not talking to some
uneducated journalists or to some of your members who are unaware of the true
past history so that you can easily impress them with marketing and PR
fluff.

Re-read your "four pillars". Can you indicate ANYTHING in there
that FGG does not do or does not have already, except the continental events?
Every single part of that stuff applies perfectly to the FGG, so I suspect you
will not be able to find a single one (or else, you should know the FGG better
than you do).

If you want to show us some distinctions between GLISA and the
FGG, then you have to come up with something better than some nice but hollow
words formulated by the spin doctors of Montréal 2006.
Roberto Mantaci  - we need FACTS, not words (end)   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-19 20:52:16
If you want to show us some distinctions between GLISA and the FGG, then you
have to come up with something better than some nice but hollow words formulated
by the spin doctors of Montréal 2006.
Alex Beal   |24.103.191.xxx |2009-08-20 04:33:13
Character problem. empty comment
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-20 12:46:30
Hi Roberto - Why not focus on what FGG and GLISA have in common?

Because
there is now two organizations - like it or not. And there is a past - with of
lot of emotions connected to - but the question is: Do we want to create a
common future or not?

As they said in South Africa after the change of power:
We have to figure out how we can create a common future - which we all want to
be part of.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-20 12:52:41
So let us just for a moment honor what we have in common (the well being of the
LGBT community) and respect where we are different (have peace with the
past).

I know this can be very, very difficult if you were part of what
happened in the conflict around the Montreal event.

But well being of the LGBT
community is a more important task than the historical conflict between FGG and
GLISA.

I have been around so long, that I know, that the truth is not in you or
me - but somewhere in between us.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-20 13:02:09
So my question for you Roberto is: What should GLISA - seen from your
perspective - do from their end, to create a trustful situation, so you would be
ready to be part of a a serous dialog?

In all conflict solving there is some
basic rules in the beginning of the process:
1) both parts of the conflict have
to accept that there is a conflict - and it is a conflict they would like to
solve!
2) both parts are ready to step back from the conflict and look at it
with more calm eyes
3) both parts will respect the others point of view and
give the other time and space to express them self

ETc
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-20 13:09:26
sorry with my spelling...but it is late here in Scandinavia right now:-)

What I
read out of Julia's response is, that GLISA are ready to start a dialog with
FGG.

For me this a big step. Because it is said here in a public space and not
behind closed doors.

So please use this chance to change the game between FGG
and GLISA - please!

Focus on the task: How can we find a model, where there is
only one global LGBT event every fourth year.

And don't start the dialog with
saying that the other organization should just die. Because GLISA is full of
great people doing good work...so don't say that this work should die.

Come up
with a scenario where every one feels that they win. Create a solution where
both FGG will win, GLISA will win and the global LGBT community will win.

I'm
always going for the win-win-win situation. That is purposeful task to solve.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.31.xxx |2009-08-20 13:16:31
Maybe the next step is that the right person i FGG and the right person in GLISA
gave each other a call, and invited each on a cup of peaceful coffee.

And
after that decided to look at the task: How do we again create a global
LGBT-event every fourth year?

And when they both accept, this is the task,
then they can start to figure out, how should we organized us self so we are
able to solve this task?

Here in Copenhagen we are sure, that this conversation
is able to take place....so who is the first to give the other part a
call???

All the best to all you out there...and goodnight

Uffe
Roberto Mantaci  - "merging" does not make sense   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-21 03:10:54
Dear Uffe,

OF COURSE GLISA now wants “dialogue”. What other alternatives do
they have? The strategy originally imposed by Montreal to its creature was :
“stand up against the FGG until you can take its place”. That strategy is
totally impracticable now. The other alternative, the status quo, condemns the
WOGs to a long and probably more painful death, so it is equally impracticable
for them. The only option left is “dialogue”. This is called realpolitik and
there is no merit in it, other than a sense of pragmatism and a good dose of
opportunism.

I think that you can find many of the answers to your questions in
the posts of several members of the LGBT sports community on this and on other
forums.

You are right in your first sentence: the issue is precisely that
there are too many points in common, and this is precisely what makes GLISA
basically an unnecessary duplication having no reasons to exist as long as it
focuses on those duplications.

GLISA may no longer be the malevolent attempt
(failed) of Montréal 2006 to destroy and replace the FGG, but it remains an
organization without legitimacy (because it was imposed by people outside LGBT
sports for their own interests and not in the best interests of LGBT sports),
that exists only slightly more than on paper and that is only kept in life by
stealing other brands and parasitizing other existing events.
Roberto Mantaci  - "merging" does not make sense   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-21 03:13:44
...as long as it focuses on those duplications.

GLISA may no longer be the
malevolent attempt (failed) of Montréal 2006 to destroy and replace the FGG,
but it remains an organization without legitimacy (because it was imposed by
people outside LGBT sports for their own interests and not in the best interests
of LGBT sports), that exists only slightly more than on paper and that is only
kept in life by stealing other brands and parasitizing other existing events.


Therefore there are no reasons, nor the conditions for a “merging” and
therefore there are no reasons for a “dialog” to discuss this very bizarre
idea of merging. Or to be more precise, a dialog can of course take place, but
possibly to determine how the elements of the LGBT sports community currently
involved with GLISA can bring their contribution to a legitimate 25-years old
movement built around a unique international event, the Gay Games, rather than
working against it.

I think that the many members of the community who have
expressed themselves here and in other forums have made their position clear.
They have not asked for a merging of GLISA and the FGG. They want a UNIQUE
international event, not a COMMON event. They are saying that the WOGs were a
mistake that just has to go away, in order to strengthen again in a unified
manner the legitimate LGBT sports movement, attached to the Gay Games. It is
obvious that FGG did not want and is not responsible for the creation of the
competitive event, and hence that there is nothing that the FGG can do about it.
Only GLISA can solve this mess they and Montréal have created.
Roberto Mantaci  - "merging" does not make sense   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-21 03:15:07
...rather than working against it.

I think that the many members of the
community who have expressed themselves here and in other forums have made their
position clear. They have not asked for a merging of GLISA and the FGG. They
want a UNIQUE international event, not a COMMON event. They are saying that the
WOGs were a mistake that just has to go away, in order to strengthen again in a
unified manner the legitimate LGBT sports movement, attached to the Gay Games.
It is obvious that FGG did not want and is not responsible for the creation of
the competitive event, and hence that there is nothing that the FGG can do about
it. Only GLISA can solve this mess they and Montréal have created.

So what
GLISA should do? Many members of the community have also already answered to
that :
1. Cancel WOG3 and all future WOGs
2. Concentrate on the development of
the continental Games, for which there is a real need, and on any other aspect
they wish, as long as it does not parasitize existing events or organizations of
the LGBT community.
3. Operate for the success of all future Gay Games, as the
only international sports event supported by the entire LGBT community.
Roberto Mantaci  - "merging" does not make sense   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-21 03:16:46
...and on any other aspect they wish, as long as it does not parasitize existing
events or organizations of the LGBT community.
3. Operate for the success of all
future Gay Games, as the only international sports event supported by the entire
LGBT community.

What all those great people doing good work in GLISA should do?
If they want to keep GLISA alive, they should focus on aspects that are really
new and an enhancement to LGBT sports (e.g. the continental events), and they
certainly could, if they so wish, get involved with the Gay Games movement to
make it stronger; including, if that is their agenda, to bring changes FROM
INSIDE the FGG and through an internal democratic process (proposals,
discussions, motions, vote of the assembly) to the things that they think could
be improved (if they think there is such a need). This is how all of us who
wanted to bring change to the FGG have always proceeded in the past.
Uffe Elbæk  - CEO of World Outgames   |85.129.90.xxx |2009-08-21 06:32:51
Hi Roberto - thanks for a long and serious response. I will let it be up to
GLISA to answer your comment and reflections.

But there is still one question,
you don't reflect on. And that is, that World Outgames 2009 in Copenhagen was
one big success (even if the numbers was less than we in the beginning expect -
because of the financial crisis in my opinion).

If so many people not only
liked the event but found it very very meaningful, then GLISA is addressing a
need. Then GLISA are doing something important.
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.90.xxx |2009-08-21 06:35:54
This is simple down to earth facts. Because if there was no need out there in
the LGBT community, then people would not have come to Copenhagen.

Just for
your information, I will below list the Copenhagen figures. Just to document the
event in Copenhagen.

Hope you find them interessting:-)

All the best

Uffe
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.90.xxx |2009-08-21 06:37:17
Key figures for World Outgames 2009:

Participants:
• 5.518 participants from
92 countries.
• The five largest national delegations excluding Denmark were:

- Germany (632)
- USA (631)
- Canada (499)
- Holland (495)
- England
(413)

Specific foreign LGBT-tourists (estimate):
• 7.500 (Atlantis gay
cruise ship alone brought 2.600 international LGBT tourists)

Average length of
participant stay in Copenhagen:
• 8.05 day (expected 5.5
days)

Program-aktivities:
• More than 2200 program-aktivities during WO:

34 sports disciplines with 1.800 competative events. In addition 43 free
workshops.
• 303 scheduled cultural events
• 24 keynote speakers and 110
workshops at the human rights conference

Copenhageners participation:
• More
than 200.000 Copenhageners and tourists participated in the many free events
during WO (primarily in connection with the opening and closing ceremonies and
the OutCities cultural program, but also in the Run for Love and the many free
sports workshops).
• 90% of Copenhageners knew about Outgames
• Between 6
– 15 % indicated that they would actively participate in WO.
• Among those
who indicated that they would participate, the culutral events were most popular
with 48% followed by Pride with 29% and sports with 25%.
• 58% had a positive
attitude torwards WO, 31% had a neutral attitude and 9 % were negative or very
negative about WO.
• 90% agree/totally agree ”That it is important for
Copenhagen to profile itself internationally by attracting and holding large
cultural events.”

The figures above are from a survey conducted by Capacent
Research for Wonderful Copenhagen and VisitDenmark.

Media coverage:

Accredited journalists: 327 (127 foreign og 200 Danish).
• The journalists
represented 24 different countries, primarily Europe and North America, but also
Israel, Mexico, Croatia, Namibia and Australia.
• 435 international articles
online from July 1 to August 10.*
• A summary of Danish media coverage is
being prepared by Primetime Kommunikation and will be available at the end of
August 2009.

* Source: Meltwater News online coverage.

In addition, there
was radio coverage from: NRK (Norway), Swedish Radio, German Radio, Canadian
Radio, Mexican Radio (daily coverage), American and Australian Radio.

TV
crews from the Czech Republic, France, Canada and the USA were also on hand for
documentary and special programming.

Economy:
• WO did not exceed the budget
and we expect to end with either a neutral result or a small plus (the final
report is expected to be published at the end of November).
• Participants and
specific tourists at World Outgames are estimated to have spent between 50 –
60 million kroner on accommodations, transportation and general consumption
(Wonderful Copenhagen estimate).

Volunteers:
• 1800 volunteers (1500 Danish
og 300 foreign).

Secretariat:
• All employees stop August 31 (except the CFO
who continues through to December 31).

Evaluation and documentation:
• Final
internal status report (February 2007 – July 2009) in Danish and English
completed July 2009.
• Internal report on the value of the event for
Copenhagen completed August 2009.
• Danish media report prepared by Primetime
Kommunikation expected week 35.
• WoCo scanning international online coverage
completed week 34.
• Analysis of Copenhagener’s event awareness and
participation completed week 34.
• Internal media analysis expected week 35.
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.90.xxx |2009-08-21 06:38:05
Copenhageners participation:
• More than 200.000 Copenhageners and tourists
participated in the many free events during WO (primarily in connection with the
opening and closing ceremonies and the OutCities cultural program, but also in
the Run for Love and the many free sports workshops).
• 90% of Copenhageners
knew about Outgames
• Between 6 – 15 % indicated that they would actively
participate in WO.
• Among those who indicated that they would participate,
the culutral events were most popular with 48% followed by Pride with 29% and
sports with 25%.
• 58% had a positive attitude torwards WO, 31% had a neutral
attitude and 9 % were negative or very negative about WO.
• 90% agree/totally
agree ”That it is important for Copenhagen to profile itself internationally
by attracting and holding large cultural events.”

The figures above are from
a survey conducted by Capacent Research for Wonderful Copenhagen and
VisitDenmark.

Media coverage:
• Accredited journalists: 327 (127 foreign og
200 Danish).
• The journalists represented 24 different countries, primarily
Europe and North America, but also Israel, Mexico, Croatia, Namibia and
Australia.
• 435 international articles online from July 1 to August 10.*

• A summary of Danish media coverage is being prepared by Primetime
Kommunikation and will be available at the end of August 2009.

* Source:
Meltwater News online coverage.

In addition, there was radio coverage from:
NRK (Norway), Swedish Radio, German Radio, Canadian Radio, Mexican Radio (daily
coverage), American and Australian Radio.

TV crews from the Czech Republic,
France, Canada and the USA were also on hand for documentary and special
programming.

Economy:
• WO did not exceed the budget and we expect to end
with either a neutral result or a small plus (the final report is expected to be
published at the end of November).
• Participants and specific tourists at
World Outgames are estimated to have spent between 50 – 60 million kroner on
accommodations, transportation and general consumption (Wonderful Copenhagen
estimate).

Volunteers:
• 1800 volunteers (1500 Danish og 300
foreign).

Secretariat:
• All employees stop August 31 (except the CFO who
continues through to December 31).

Evaluation and documentation:
• Final
internal status report (February 2007 – July 2009) in Danish and English
completed July 2009.
• Internal report on the value of the event for
Copenhagen completed August 2009.
• Danish media report prepared by Primetime
Kommunikation expected week 35.
• WoCo scanning international online coverage
completed week 34.
• Analysis of Copenhagener’s event awareness and
participation completed week 34.
• Internal media analysis expected week 35.
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.90.xxx |2009-08-21 06:39:14
The figures above are from a survey conducted by Capacent Research for Wonderful
Copenhagen and VisitDenmark.

Media coverage:
• Accredited journalists: 327
(127 foreign og 200 Danish).
• The journalists represented 24 different
countries, primarily Europe and North America, but also Israel, Mexico, Croatia,
Namibia and Australia.
• 435 international articles online from July 1 to
August 10.*
• A summary of Danish media coverage is being prepared by
Primetime Kommunikation and will be available at the end of August 2009.

*
Source: Meltwater News online coverage.

In addition, there was radio coverage
from: NRK (Norway), Swedish Radio, German Radio, Canadian Radio, Mexican Radio
(daily coverage), American and Australian Radio.

TV crews from the Czech
Republic, France, Canada and the USA were also on hand for documentary and
special programming.

Economy:
• WO did not exceed the budget and we expect
to end with either a neutral result or a small plus (the final report is
expected to be published at the end of November).
• Participants and specific
tourists at World Outgames are estimated to have spent between 50 – 60 million
kroner on accommodations, transportation and general consumption (Wonderful
Copenhagen estimate).

Volunteers:
• 1800 volunteers (1500 Danish og 300
foreign).

Secretariat:
• All employees stop August 31 (except the CFO who
continues through to December 31).

Evaluation and documentation:
• Final
internal status report (February 2007 – July 2009) in Danish and English
completed July 2009.
• Internal report on the value of the event for
Copenhagen completed August 2009.
• Danish media report prepared by Primetime
Kommunikation expected week 35.
• WoCo scanning international online coverage
completed week 34.
• Analysis of Copenhagener’s event awareness and
participation completed week 34.
• Internal media analysis expected week 35.
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.90.xxx |2009-08-21 06:40:17
Economy:
• WO did not exceed the budget and we expect to end with either a
neutral result or a small plus (the final report is expected to be published at
the end of November).
• Participants and specific tourists at World Outgames
are estimated to have spent between 50 – 60 million kroner on accommodations,
transportation and general consumption (Wonderful Copenhagen estimate).


Volunteers:
• 1800 volunteers (1500 Danish og 300
foreign).

Secretariat:
• All employees stop August 31 (except the CFO who
continues through to December 31).

Evaluation and documentation:
• Final
internal status report (February 2007 – July 2009) in Danish and English
completed July 2009.
• Internal report on the value of the event for
Copenhagen completed August 2009.
• Danish media report prepared by Primetime
Kommunikation expected week 35.
• WoCo scanning international online coverage
completed week 34.
• Analysis of Copenhagener’s event awareness and
participation completed week 34.
• Internal media analysis expected week 35.
Uffe Elbæk   |85.129.90.xxx |2009-08-21 06:44:20
• Analysis of Copenhagener’s event awareness and participation completed
week 34.
• Internal media analysis expected week 35.

This is the facts from
Copenhagen. The event was real. The need was reel. The organization was real.
GLISA was real.

So of course there is a reason for a dialog...because there is
learnings to share and a future to build.

I'm stepping down from my position as
CEO but I know that the two co-presidents of GLISA will continue their good
work.

And then I just hope that Cologne in 2010 will make a great, great and
very very meaningful event.

And I'm sure they will - because they are great
people.

All the best

uffe
Bill Wassmer  - Past Co President Federation of Gay Games   |64.12.116.xxx |2009-08-23 04:10:02
Very interesting discussion thread. Some well thought out points on both sides.
I look forward to reading the report of the Brussells Meeting being held next
week (August 29, 2009).
Antony Paltridge  - Competitor at Montreal and Copenhagen   |203.160.113.xxx |2009-08-29 00:37:51
Hi - I've scanned through some of the discussion above and a lot of it leaves me
feeling really sad. I travelled from New Zealand to attend the games in
Montreal and Copenhagen. There was a smaller kiwi contingent at Copenhagen that
at Montreal, but I put that down to the distance (no-one has to travel as far as
we do) and the world recession.) I enjoyed both games and in Copenhagen I
finally managed to win a medal (there were 27 in my age group in the
half-marathon so no, it wasn't a turn-up-on-the-day medal). As someone who had
never competed in any sport in his life until four years ago, it made me
incredibly proud of being a gay man and gay New Zealander. What gets to me is
the vitriol that seems to get spat at between people on both sides of this
debate. Are you adults or spoilt children? Both FGG and GLISA have much to offer
GLBT sport. I think some people need to start thinking about GLBT athletes more
and less of their egos.
Gene Dermody  - It is YOUR games!   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-29 07:58:46
Anthony; When I read posts like yours, I know I am doing the right thing in
fighting this. I had the exact same life changing experience with GayGames in
1982. So I have been working ever since to help others see it. Try and
understand that you have a responsibility to evaluate the data presented, and
take a stand. I know your generation abhors disagreements and loves compromises.
But think 1938 Chamberlain Munich... sometimes someone has to take a stand
against outright corruption. I have worked 28 years in the Gay Athletic
Movement just to hear your words as my only reward. Please respect my expertise
when I say we must fight corporate greed. Some GLISA people are just Pride and
Tourism special interest parasites.
Antony Paltridge   |203.160.113.xxx |2009-08-29 10:54:24
Gene - did you really read my comment? Calling people "parasites"?
Again, I feel really sad at the discussion going on here.
Gene Dermody  - Did you read any of the facts?   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-29 11:10:00
Antony.. What can I say if you have not read anything or did research? You are
entitled to an opinion, buyt objecting to style is useless. In business you do
not merge your Brand every time someone gets greedy and demands attention. You
fight legally and fairly. You do not capitulate to Political Correctness. When
you can formulate an answer to any of the issues presented, then I will listen.
But to just 'curse a pox on both their houses' is the refugee of lazy coward who
is only interested in themself. There are bigger issues here other than you had
a good time.
Gene Dermody  - What is a parasite?   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-29 11:39:08
The Copenhagen Secretariat's report (the government's report) references the
Sydney 2002 GayGames data as the source of much useful information. That data is
classified FGG property (data bases, budgets, operational plans, etc...), and
was obtained illegally from Montreal 2002 WOGs. It is possibly grounds for a
lawsuit, but who wants to pay lawyers. But it is certainly parasitic, and
brazenly admitted to boot.
We ALL have a good time at these events, and we
ALL want them to continue to grow. But there has to be some honesty about the
facts.
Antony Paltridge  - Facts   |203.160.113.xxx |2009-08-30 02:29:14
Yes there are bigger issues here and I am very conscious of them. If someone was
sitting down in front of you (as opposed to responding through the web), would
you really call them a "parasite"? How can expect to converse with
someone using that sort of language? Is this how you deal with people
day-to-day? I'm not sure who said, but your approach sadly reminds me of the
phrase: "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up."
Roberto Mantaci   |82.227.169.xxx |2009-08-30 04:44:39
If I sit in front of a thief, I call him a thief. If I sit in front of a crook,
I call him a crook.
If you knew the facts like some of us do and if you rather
let them lead your judgement instead of fluffy PC stuff of the kind "let's
be nice with each other", you would realize that GLISA is just a parasite
conceived by Montréal 2006 et al. to steal from the LGBT sports community (and
that includes you).
And you would be humbly grateful to individuals like Gene
Dermody who have served the community (and that includes you) for 25 years and
for doing what he is doing for you with his determination in stopping this
fraud.
Gene Dermody  - Actually you have half right..   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-30 06:35:26
Yes, being confused by the FACTS because your mind is made up to support GLISA
is the problem... your problem... Why still no comment from you on stealing
intellectual property even after they admit it? Is it all about form over
substance? I can believe there are lots of people like you who abhor conflict,
and would prefer to scuttle the truth just to sing kumbaya about mindless
political correct empty phrases like 'Can we all just get along?'. No, I have
invested way too much in building successful LGBT organizations to have some
rich white boys from the Pacific Northwest steal it all. I did try to help
Copenhagen. Against the advice of the coaches of wrestlers WithOutBorders
(WW. I offered full scholarships, and even went there on my dime to help with
whatever. They had 7 wrestlers... not even a decent practice session. GayGames
gets 100-160 wrestlers regularly. GLISA is a shell designed to use your (higher)
athletic registration fees to fund their Pride and Conferences while just
outsourcing LGBT athletic events to the mainstream. I guess wrestlers care more
about what you DO and less about how you say it.
Gene Dermody  - Actually you have it half right part 2   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-30 06:43:04
..GLISA is a shell Brand designed to use your (higher) athletic registration
fees to fund their Pride Events and Conferences while just outsourcing LGBT
athletic events to the mainstream. You should care a lot about this, and do
your research, instead of defending the indefensible with nonsensical political
correctness about style. Please, it pains me that you are so upset, but DO
SOMETHING useful, become informed of the FACTS before you speak. My vocabulary
is not the real issue here. I guess wrestlers care more about what you DO and
care less about how you say it. Respect MY cultural diversity, which is to cut
to the chase.
Gene Dermody  - Who wants conferences?   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-29 08:05:44
In response to Julia of GLISDA when she says GLISA constituents want
conferences, I wish we knew where the data was to support that claim. The
GayGames did that survey of 10k LGBT Atheletes in 2003, and it was clear that
this huge constituency do NOT want a conferences focus. The first of these
links is the summary of the survey:


http://GayGames.com/en/SydneyWhatDidWeLearn_fi les/frame.htm

http://GayGames.com/en/SydneyQuestionnairePresen tation_files/frame.htm

http://GayGames.com/en/SurveyVarianceAnalysis_fi les/frame.htm

http://GayGames.com/en/SydneySurveyComments_file s/frame.htm

http://GayGames.com/en/SPC_ImageOfGayGames031119 .pdf

I wish GLISA would
produce facts & data and stop expressing PC emotions.
Gene Dermody  - resending those links:   |173.11.97.xxx |2009-08-29 08:12:56
the interface corrupted the URL links. The first is the summary of the
survey:

http://GayGames.com/en/SydneyWhatDidWeLearn_fil...

http:// http://GayGames.com/en/SydneyQuestionna...

http:// http://GayGames.com/en/SurveyVarianceAn...

http:// http://GayGames.com/en/SydneySurveyComm...

[url] http://GayGames.com/en/SPC_ImageOfGayGames031119.p df [url]
lacharlie13   |76.95.203.xxx |2010-06-07 10:39:15
Thank god for Gene and Roberto,and people who cannot get along with them
disqualify themselves from serious consideration GLISA and the WOGs need to
disappear and stop wasting everyone's time and energy
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